Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

GooberTheHat

Yeah, but "the will of the people".

WorKid

Don't forget by law there was a GE scheduled for 2020.

There was plenty of time, if May had assembled a competent team and then led them. Plenty of time.

Instead David, Johnson, shambolic extra GE, chaos.

RedDave2

WorKid wrote:

Eh? There was a referendum. There was only one question.

You've missed the point which everyone else got. The government could easily have held off on triggering article 50 and gotten more of its plans lined up. All this bullshit infighting could have been done and dusted and then you trigger the 2 year period.

It's like wanting to bunjee jump but not taking the time to secure the fucking rope.

WorKid

Remember the shit storm when they said parliament should decide if we trigger it or not?

(And our parliament did vote to trigger it btw.)

Now imagine saying fuck it, we need to spend a couple of years thinking about this first.

Meanwhile we couldn't actually start talking to the EU. And all the while the clock ticks on the fixed term parliament.

Pre referendum the promise was to trigger it immediately.

Ultimately they had about 9 months before triggering it to work out their objectives. That should have been more than long enough.

GooberTheHat

If the deals were in place before art. 50 was triggered then the 2 year period could quite possibly have been reduced too.

hunk

All this shit could've been avoided if Cameron/May actually had a contingency plan in case people voted leave in the referendum. There was no contingency plan, everything is decided ad hoc. Meaning May is severly crippled going in trying to negotiate a decent Brexit deal.

It's a total clusterfuck, May leading the UK like lemmings of a cliff.

WorKid

Yeah, Cameron absolutely fucked everyone and imo should be tried for treason or something.

May took the most epic of hospital passes and has proven to be utterly incapable of even basic leadership things.

WorKid

In the past I used to give May some credit for simply not being Leadsom or Gove. I'm not certain now they wouldn't have been better options.

Diluted Dante

WorKid wrote:

Eh? There was a referendum. There was only one question.

Yes, a question that didnt address the future relationship past 'in the EU or not'. So when the result is not, you then figure out what not means. Then you invoke Article 50.

hunk

Agreed, May has allowed herself to be maneuvered in an impossible negotiating position. Basically, Leave are steering for a no deal Brexit which would crash the economy of the UK.
Which is what many of the financial backers of Leave want, a destabilisation of the economy. Perfect for swooping in like vultures and buying up assets.

Yes, people voted Leave but like Dante observed the implementation could've been done without shooting yourself in the foot first.

hunk

Corbyn and labour might be a way out of this clusterfuck: 2nd ref with remain (for now) being an option, next to leave (no deal). Chequeres plan seems to be dead in the water. Corbyn probably still wants to Leave but he's not going to do it on the no deal terms of the nationalist leave faction. He'll need to win next elections to be able to implement any of his plans though.

Stopharage

WorKid wrote:

Yeah, stupid bastards, following through on the results of the referendum.

It's the 15 months they've pissed away with a stupid GE and ridiculous infighting that's the issue.

The referendum was advisory not binding. The result didn’t require the outcome to be a fait accompli. A cursory appreciation of constitutional change shows that you are setting yourselves up for generations of disunity if you allow such changes on a relatively marginal victory.

Parliamentary sovereignty allows for parliaments to overturn the laws and regulations of any predecessors. So, a simple majority in the Commons will suffice. This however, will be a decision that subsequent parliaments can not overturn, beholden as it will be to 27 other countries. Hence why it was foolhardy, spineless and catastrophically damaging to follow the will of the people.

hunk

Bang on, what Stoph said.

The Tory party is infiltrated with rabid nationalist Leavers egging May on to execute the people's will however damaging the outcome. And yeah the referendum was never legally binding. May and Cameron have allowed the nationalists to hijack the Brexit referendum/ debate and are effectively dancing to their tune.

There is no leadership. Leave abuse the referendum outcome as an excuse (mandate) to implement Brexit as soon as possible. However this means shooting yourself in the foot first, due to regulations the prime minister is now in an impossible position. She won't be able to negotiate a better deal for Brexit because she's not in a bargaining position to do so.

Yeah, half the country voted leave but this is what happens when you initiate Brexit ad hoc without a plan. You'll effectively crash-out your own economy. But then again perhaps that was part of Leave's intention all along, no?

Roujin

As a quick aside, I can't help but feel like I remember discourse at the time that May pulled the trigger on article 50 that quickly because they were still shook by the UKIP threat, they were worried that a prolonged period of fuckface Farage blithering on demanding BREXIT NOW from the sidelines while they were in the background doing THE WORK THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING would have been a disaster come the next GE if we weren't out. Also Johnson and Gove and their little behind the scenes scheming would have probably removed May in the end, so maybe she was trying to stop that, which she did.

On the plus side, kids learning history and politics get seething interesting to study in the future.

poprock

Roujin wrote:

On the plus side, kids learning history and politics get seething interesting to study in the future.

Aye, everyone loves a good disaster story.

WorKid

We could have ended up in multiple better places. Not often I agree with the fuckwit that is Boris Johnson but he's right that this stupid fudge is the worse of all worlds, neither in or out, we can't influence the EU rules but we can't break free and do our own thing either. Total insanity.

All the downsides and none of the upsides.

Diluted Dante

We can't break free and do our own thing regardless of what deal we make with the EU.

If we go the full swivil eyed brexiteer free trade deal with everyone route, we basically have to bend over and get shafted by everyone because the only cards we're holding are those football player cards from cigs in the 50's, and we're playing poker.

We just need to re-join the EEA and have done with it.

Yossarian

This was always where we were headed. We’re too deeply entwined into the EU for us to be able to do our own thing without a massive economic hit that no politician in their right mind would support. The only realistic options involve losing influence but still taking rules.

ChopperByrne

Has there been any guarantees that non-nationals living and working in the UK would be able to maintain their status?

Roujin

WorKid wrote:

We could have ended up in multiple better places. Not often I agree with the fuckwit that is Boris Johnson but he's right that this stupid fudge is the worse of all worlds, neither in or out, we can't influence the EU rules but we can't break free and do our own thing either. Total insanity.

All the downsides and none of the upsides.

Yeah fucking shit, who'd want to be like Norway anyway.

No but Norway reinvested it's oil wealth back into a big social fund for the citizens. Big up Norway. Lol at BP etc. Truly ours is a country that has become ruled over for the few, not the many.

Brexit seems unlikely to change this trend. Getting a big socialist governing party into place via Corbyn and then not wanting to go back into a big socialist trade block seems odd. To me the EU seems almost inherently socialist, although I'd have to do some reading up on how effective lobbying of MEPs actually is. Seems like it would be harder to lobby because of the veto powers of the major states to counter shitty decision making if required. Idealistic view of the use of the veto, i know.

Brooks

The European Union is in the social spirit but in practice is pretty fucking neolib. How Corbyn or anyone else intends to correct that from the outside is total murk.

Diluted Dante

You won't from the outside.

Yossarian

The E.U. has an interesting tension, IMO. It certainly leans neolib in places, as you’d expect from something that grew out of trade agreements, but it seems to be one of the few global entities willing to stand up to, say, big tech, and also contains some of the most social-democratic countries in the world and an awful lot of state-ownership of assets.

I’d argue that it’s more economically liberal than neoliberal.

WorKid

Massive North South and now East West divides across the EU though. Hard to conclude it's at all homogenous.

ChopperByrne

Arlene Foster being a cunt as usual: https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/1002/999351-good-friday-agreement/

acemuzzy

Fact of the Day: 73% of Tory voters think Brexit would be worth it even if it led to the unravelling of the Northern Ireland peace process.

Diluted Dante

acemuzzy wrote:

Fact of the Day: 73% of Tory voters think Brexit would be worth it even if it led to the unravelling of the Northern Ireland peace process.

The follow up question should be would you support Brexit if it involved you being blown up by an Irishman?

Roujin

The Irish are gentleman bombers though, they always give you a 30 minute warning by phone. Plenty of time to get chauffeured away from danger.

ChopperByrne

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1009/1001863-ni_brexit_rights/

RedDave2

I think there's a similar issue with British people who have lived in Gibraltar/ Spain for a length of time. They can't vote in British elections and they won't be able to vote in euro/ Spanish elections. This breaks human rights laws apparently.

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