Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

SpaceGazelle

g.man wrote:

Proper boozer that.

Yep. Looks ace.

GooberTheHat

The most working of working men's pubs.

SpaceGazelle

100 days to go. Fuck me.

Funkstain

Brexit is the worst. Every time I see an explainer on it I get more depressed. Every explainer should be this:

"If you want a Brexit deal with the EU, there are three choices to choose from, and a law-abiding country MUST choose one of them:

1) Align with EU regulations forever, with no say in their evolution other than soft power
2) Put a border down the Irish Sea, and reconcile yourselves to a united Ireland eventually
3) Put a border between NI and Ireland, breaking GFA

Which one motherfuckers?"

There. That's my "brief explainer about Brexit deal". Fuck your fishes and your chlorinated chicken. The intractable problem of Brexit was ALWAYS the above, and everything else is noise until that decision is made. The fucking useless Remain campaign could simply have parroted this slogan:

Brexit: lose NI, or lose regulatory power (OK cummings can do better)

acemuzzy

Maybe we should have a second referendum?

davyK

No one has convinced me that the benefits of leaving outweigh the downside of being in the EU.

I know the argument is over. But I have yet to hear anyone explain why it will be so good - in a way that I will understand what the benefit is to me.

I would have thought that it would have been communicated by now, or at least apparant....or have I missed something?

It was never legally possible without getting rid of a law. That was obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the UK and its relationship with Ireland. It was certainly never explained at the start.

poprock

davyK wrote:

I have yet to hear anyone explain why [leaving the EU] will be so good - in a way that I will understand what the benefit is to me.

Simple: That’s because there is no way in which it will benefit you. Quite the opposite.

Funkstain

davyK wrote:

No one has convinced me that the benefits of leaving outweigh the downside of being in the EU. I know the argument is over. But I have yet to hear anyone explain why it will be so good - in a way that I will understand what the benefit is to me. I would have thought that it would have been communicated by now, or at least apparant....or have I missed something? It was never legally possible without getting rid of a law. That was obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the UK and its relationship with Ireland. It was certainly never explained at the start.

the problem is, this kind of nuance (am aware this isn't nuance, it is normally a basic requirement of a campaign to explain why their side is better...) is a waste of time. It doesn't work on the brexiteers, who are broken-record spouting "EU tyranny" and "immigrants" and "GREAT Britain" and so on. So break down their mindset with something easier: which one motherfuckers? There is no way around this. Gove, the oiliest bastard in politics who wouldn't admit to a self-caused problem if he was set on fire, has admitted that these are the choices. All of them have. So, which one is it?

davyK

I mean no-one explained why it was good or bad to remain either. The referendum remains one of the most wretched, nastiest and petty periods of history in the UK. Poodles fighting over the guts of the carcass of a dead lion.

The Scot ref was just as bad with a paucity of information but it was only the warm up act for Brexit.

GooberTheHat

davyK wrote:

No one has convinced me that the benefits of leaving outweigh the downside of being in the EU.

I know the argument is over. But I have yet to hear anyone explain why it will be so good - in a way that I will understand what the benefit is to me.

I would have thought that it would have been communicated by now, or at least apparant....or have I missed something?

It was never legally possible without getting rid of a law. That was obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the UK and its relationship with Ireland. It was certainly never explained at the start.

No one has shown me any benefits to leaving the EU so far.

mistercrayon

acemuzzy wrote:

Maybe we should have a second referendum?

No

davyK

Please no.

mistercrayon

This is not about benefits and etc etc.

monkey

Funkstain wrote:

davyK wrote:

No one has convinced me that the benefits of leaving outweigh the downside of being in the EU. I know the argument is over. But I have yet to hear anyone explain why it will be so good - in a way that I will understand what the benefit is to me. I would have thought that it would have been communicated by now, or at least apparant....or have I missed something? It was never legally possible without getting rid of a law. That was obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the UK and its relationship with Ireland. It was certainly never explained at the start.

the problem is, this kind of nuance (am aware this isn't nuance, it is normally a basic requirement of a campaign to explain why their side is better...) is a waste of time. It doesn't work on the brexiteers, who are broken-record spouting "EU tyranny" and "immigrants" and "GREAT Britain" and so on. So break down their mindset with something easier: which one motherfuckers? There is no way around this. Gove, the oiliest bastard in politics who wouldn't admit to a self-caused problem if he was set on fire, has admitted that these are the choices. All of them have. So, which one is it?

I think you’ve forgotten that we’ll be getting a fantastic trade deal which voids all of these outcomes.

Roujin

Funkstain wrote:

Brexit is the worst. Every time I see an explainer on it I get more depressed. Every explainer should be this:

"If you want a Brexit deal with the EU, there are three choices to choose from, and a law-abiding country MUST choose one of them:

1) Align with EU regulations forever, with no say in their evolution other than soft power
2) Put a border down the Irish Sea, and reconcile yourselves to a united Ireland eventually
3) Put a border between NI and Ireland, breaking GFA

Which one motherfuckers?"

There. That's my "brief explainer about Brexit deal". Fuck your fishes and your chlorinated chicken. The intractable problem of Brexit was ALWAYS the above, and everything else is noise until that decision is made. The fucking useless Remain campaign could simply have parroted this slogan:

Brexit: lose NI, or lose regulatory power (OK cummings can do better)

You forgot Option 4 - Surprise motherfucker, its Gove announcing a policed border around Kent for hauliers to have to show their digital paperwork is complete before they even get to the lorry parks in addition to the NI debacle!

Funkstain

Your option 4 is no deal planning, which is option 3 - it’s just that lorry parks in Kent won’t change Derby Brexiteers’ minds, but a nasty IRA bomb might

Funkstain

monkey wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

davyK wrote:

No one has convinced me that the benefits of leaving outweigh the downside of being in the EU. I know the argument is over. But I have yet to hear anyone explain why it will be so good - in a way that I will understand what the benefit is to me. I would have thought that it would have been communicated by now, or at least apparant....or have I missed something? It was never legally possible without getting rid of a law. That was obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the UK and its relationship with Ireland. It was certainly never explained at the start.

the problem is, this kind of nuance (am aware this isn't nuance, it is normally a basic requirement of a campaign to explain why their side is better...) is a waste of time. It doesn't work on the brexiteers, who are broken-record spouting "EU tyranny" and "immigrants" and "GREAT Britain" and so on. So break down their mindset with something easier: which one motherfuckers? There is no way around this. Gove, the oiliest bastard in politics who wouldn't admit to a self-caused problem if he was set on fire, has admitted that these are the choices. All of them have. So, which one is it?

I think you’ve forgotten that we’ll be getting a fantastic trade deal which voids all of these outcomes.

Fantastic deal with the eu can only be option 1. Fantastic deal with the US requires option 2.

The choices are still there, it is inevitable, and it answers any dumb shit argument / fever dream made by any proponent of brexit. It doesn’t matter that hypothetically we could become a superpower directly as a result of brexit: you still need to pick one of those options.

It’s the simplicity and unavoidability of it I like: you just keeping asking someone which option you prefer, motherfucker? Genuinely think referendum could have been won with just that.

Diluted Dante

This is just Project Fear again Funk.

monkey

It couldn’t (edit - have won the referendum). The point about the trade deal fantasy is that they reject the three options. They have their cake and eat it. The denial of reality is still there. They’ve signed a WA accepting the reality of it, but campaigned during a general election still denying it.

It’s still going on with the Internal Markets Bill. The same denial. They’ll break the law to deny that those are the options. They reject the options and people keep voting for them so they don’t have to accept them. Always some magical future trade deal will sort them all out.

It’s coming to a head now though.

RedDave2

I'm guessing most Brexiters would go Option 2 and let there be a united Ireland. I could be wrong but Brexit seems to be a profoundly English thing and as long as England stays in control of England, whether Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland come along is beside the point.

Funkstain

See red’s got it.

It would’ve won it easily. It’s not about project fear: as I said you could state that you even believe Britain could be incredible success outside the eu, but you acknowledge the truth of the options. There are no ,and never have been any, way around them. This should have been made clear straight away and used to hammer brexiteers. Enough people would’ve understood this to change the vote I think. Damn sight better than what we got which was ludicrous condescension and wetness

davyK

RedDave2 wrote:

I'm guessing most Brexiters would go Option 2 and let there be a united Ireland. I could be wrong but Brexit seems to be a profoundly English thing and as long as England stays in control of England, whether Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland come along is beside the point.

I'm inclined to agree. "The English" don't give a fuck about N.Ireland. The loyalty of hard core Unionists in NI is very much a one way street.

mistercrayon

—-

Funkstain

No you’re right it wouldn’t have won it. After all you’re fighting people who genuinely believed turkey was going to accede

GooberTheHat

If it wasn't such a sad state of affairs it would be funny that since leaving the EU we've had record numbers (hyperbolic I know) of illegal migrants trying to cross the channel.

LivDiv

Would agree with the above.
Your average Englander doesn't give two shits about Ireland, even the bombs were a London problem.

Honestly, even amongst remainers I doubt most will be able to tell you which is Dublin and which is Belfast.

poprock

LivDiv wrote:

Would agree with the above.
Your average Englander doesn't give two shits about Ireland, even the bombs were a London problem.

The West of England might beg to differ. Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Warrington … even Derby and that’s East Midlands.

But because of short memories, yeah … you’re probably right.

SpaceGazelle

I still blame Cameron for this shit pickle. This is what ,happens when you just make a random referendum up based on a single question that doesn't mean anything, on the grounds nobody is going to vote for it anyway so it doesn't really matter that the question was so stupid.

Then everyone had to scramble about trying to figure out wtf just happened, and what everyone had just voted on exactly, but since nobody could figure out what that was everyone just made up whatever shit suited them and said it was the wish of the people.

mistercrayon

While Cameron was the div holding (and making) the bomb I think it was inevitable we’d either leave the eu or we’d have successively anti eu governments until we’d got that vote.

The only way it would have reversed was if some how the perception of that place and seen social problems caused by it were also changed but you’re looking at a change in perception that has to happen while people are getting more frustrated.

davyK

I post-edited and put quotes around "The English" as I hadn't meant it about all obvs and wanted to avoid offence.

However most English people do not know about N.Ireland. The bit about being part of the UK escaped an awful lot of people before the Referendum. We are an odd little place over the sea who print their own sterling, blow each other up and were probably represented by Ian Paisley or a hooded terrorist in the eyes of most in GB.

At certain times of the year there are more union flags on show in NI than you would see in all of GB, and more tricolors than in the Republic of Ireland. We are an intensely divided society with cultural and physical barriers between us still. The extreme parties play on emotion and that's why they are in power. It doesn't take much to make the mask slip over here.

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