Tempy wrote:

Interestingly i don't know which first boss you mean, because Bloodborne has two very different bosses you can encounter first, both of them essentially examining you on different halves are your skill set.

I feel this has diverged way of topic from Zeldaso to bring it back: Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest tha Zelda olayersrarely die to bosses, which is probably good because I think getting to a Zelda boss is more boring and time wasting after a death than a Souls boss. Different frustrations though, and I have been plenty frustrated with Souls boss runs in the past.

I think it hits a frictional point between being a fun challenge to conquer but once conquered beating it again isn't as fun or interesting. The rub is in bloodborne for me that while the challenge (in a puzzle sense) after figuring a baddie out goes away the other kind of challenge ( I better do this fucking properly) Never seems to. The locks are time consuming rather than hard. It's a bit like in Phoenix Wright where you have contemplated a solution but you have to run through a lot of dialogue to try it again.

In a way it's similar to the reason why I dropped hitman 2016. I wanted to keep trying new things but the set up and loading to get to those points needed care and attention but wasn't actually hard but frustrating when the new bit I wanted to try was wrong by a little bit causing a whole mess to fall apart.

When I got to the boss I'm all set to try and figure the fuck out but come on you want to (in essence) unskippable cutscene me again?!

Good. That's what Zelda needs at this stage. SS was basically ruined by its refusal to offer a challenge.

The latter, but this one may be different

A gonk is a droid in Star Wars.

This one's probably different enough anyway, but I think in previous Zeldas it would've been an advantage to be less familiar, if anything, to avoid the staleness of repeated tropes and puzzles.

Escape wrote:

I hate sewer levels in games, and Dark Souls is — as far as I've seen — one long, drawn-out one.

This is pure gold.

I want all sewers to be like Ash Lake and Darkroot Garden.

That's a point. We haven't seen an annoying companion yet have we? Or an instrument, no way Shigsy will drop the music stuff.

Can't be worse than

Escape hates anything post 1996 that isn't fightmans or UC MP, so take that into account.

mistercrayon wrote:

Childintime wrote:

Gascgoine is the ultimate double-check: have you learnt how to dodge and parry? If yes, proceed. If no, lol get rekt.

Surely there's an element of learning the guy himself though? I always felt there was an element of punch out which was about learning animations and stuff.

I also don't think there are any aerial enemies up to that point (perhaps the crows?)

Yeah, you have to learn his attack patterns, especially in the 2nd phase which can be incredibly unforgiving. But the fundamentals are the same, as Tempy says.

One problem, though, is that some of his attacks are very tricky to get the parry timing right, so even if you have the right idea and nearly do it, that "mistake" will probably cost you your life because he can do so much damage so quickly and it's hard to get away. So yeah, it's a fucker...

Tempy wrote:

There's definitely a bit of learning his specific animations, but by and large the animation timing for 90% of the enemies in Bloodborne is largely consistent, you're aiming to fire the split second they initiate their wind up to parry. It is trial by fire and *whisper* I think Gascgoine is too hard and Cleric Beast should have been the forced first boss.

Also aerial? Do you mean because he leaps? I think the brick trolls can jump too, perhaps not.

I actually agree that FG is too hard for that early. As a fight, I really like it now but, back when I first played BB, he was the main reason I bounced off it.

@mistercrayon - please allow me to tell you a story:

Way back when, I picked up Dark Souls after hearing many great things about it. I played from Firelink and tentatively made my way forward. It was a constant onslaught of tension as I was afraid to make mistakes as, even early on, bonfire placement seemed insane.

I don't think I even made it to the Gargoyles. I was too afraid to do anything and the whole thing seemed sadistic, so I quit. After all, it was taking me hours to do what I can now do in 20 minutes.

Anyway, some time later I saw Demon's in a sale and I got that - it was about 4 quid so I figured that even if I didn't like it I wouldn't really lose much. I did some reading up, and I used a walkthrough for the first area until I felt comfortable.

I needed that, because otherwise I would have bounced off again. I needed to be able to get a bit of confidence in what I was doing, so I learnt optimal routes (as in, level order), what was an "easy" character build, and then tried to do as much blind as possible.

Demon's was just about the best one for me to get into souls - it's kinda level based, so I could feel a sense of completion after each boss. But, while doing so I could also learn how Souls worked.

I went back to Dark and fell in love.

Now, what's important to know here is that, in terms of playstyle, I was incredibly conservative. Magic was often featured for ranged attacks, thus reducing risk, and if I went toe-to-toe it was always with a shield. That was the same in Demon's, Dark and Dark 2. I enjoyed playing that way.

So when Bloodborne came out and removed what was, basically, my preferred playstyle, I really struggled to adjust.

I got past Cleric, and then reached Gascgoine, and then hit a wall. He was just wrecking me time and time again, and I grew to absolutely hate it. And each time I died I'd have to make my way back, again, get through the first stage, again, and then get absolutely destroyed trying to get away from him when he transforms. It wasn't fun, and I hated it.

Eventually, I managed to beat him, but not through real skill. I basically farmed blood echoes and bought shitloads of molotovs, then tried to down him as quick as possible and it worked. But for the rest of that play though, it still didn't click. I wasn't really using my gun, I was only dodging, and sometimes thy wasn't enough.

I eventually made it about 70% of the way through the game and gave up, I just wasn't having fun, and it was only getting worse. I was beating bosses, but barely, and it never felt like I was in control because I was afraid of having to get to them again, so I'd try to stay as safe as possible. My heart didn't pound with anticipation before a boss, it pounded with dread, Not dread at what it could be, but dread of having to come back again. So, I quit.

Anyway, Dark Souls 3 comes out and it's learnt a lot from Bloodborne, but shields and magic and stuff are back, so hurray! I play it and complete it quite quickly, and while I think it's ok, I wasn't a great fan. The change to bloodborne speed made conservative play feel unrewarding, and so after completing it I started a new character on a whim, Bloodborne style. No shield, no armour, just a dagger and a death wish.

The weapon art of the dagger - quickstep - was a good facsimile of Bloodborne's and so I dived right in. I gave up eventually, not because it was bad, but because I realised DS3 didn't hold much replay value for me, but it did give me a taste of that game style in more comfortable surroundings. It also taught me to dodge into attacks rather than away, especially against enemies with reach, and taught me the importance of timing rolls.

I restarted Bloodborne and it clicked. This time, though, I wasn't gonna mash, or run away, or try to get around what it was. I learnt to parry right from the start, on even common enemies. And when I finally got back to FG, I did it, "properly" this time.

Now, the reason "properly" is like that is because I have a massive distaste for the try-hard culture that surrounds souls games. The idea that real players don't use shields, or that summoning is chickening out - it's poisonous and bullshit. Go on any forum where someone says they are having problems with Boss X and there will always be people whose advice amounts to "I don't know why people struggle, he was easy, did him first time with a wooden spoon and my eyes closed". It's not helpful, and it is one of my least favourite aspects of Souls fandom.

BUT, FG, for me, is the exception. Not because he's the best boss ever, but because if you can't get past him without at least one parry and visceral, if you can't dodge into his jump, then you're going to be forcing yourself through the rest of the game through sheer endurance, not enjoyment. He's the test that says "are you onboard?".

The problem is that he is so early, that he could be the first boss you face, that he is so unforgiving, and that the run back to him is an annoying pain.

I get that.

Now, for me, this is important: please don't take it to mean that I think you're doing it "wrong". Or that liking the game is just a matter of waiting for some factors to align before it clicks. I don't assume the game is for everyone, and I completely understand your frustration because I was 100% with you.

I just mean to say is that, the relationship between the game and the player here is almost symbiotic- they both have to be in line before it really works, that's even if it works. That boss fight taught me so much, but it took ages, and multiple characters, before I got that.

There really should be a lamp just before him, that'd make it much better. It'd allow you to go in and try things without fear. There's a dlc boss who has a lamp right at the door - a real challenging boss but one of my favourites, because I was able to test myself to do it perfectly without even throwing a single punch - it was 100% parries and viscerals and all the while I barely had to heal.

That's not me trying to be a show off dick. The reason I was able to do that is that the door was right there, so failure just meant I could collect myself and try again, having learnt about a new stage or attack. But, had the lamp have been much further back, would I have tried to do it that way? Probably not.

I dislike Bonfires/Lamps being too close together because I think it really hurts the world cohesion and damages the sense of achievement when you progress. But, when you've got a boss like that, where you need people to be absolutely on their toes, and when it's so early on, I think there really should be a lamp. In that aspect, I can absolutely empathise with your struggles.

So, what I suppose I'm saying is: I feel your pain, because I was in exactly the same situation as you. Why I'm saying is, it doesn't necessarily mean itstnot for you - maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it could be if you accept that it's unfairly tough, and that the punishment for failure will be annoying as hell, but if you can learn how to do it without resorting to alternative strategies, then there's an amazing adventure waiting for you.

Out of curiosity, what weapon are you using? I hate the axe because the R2 attack is too useful and strong, as weird as that sounds, so it's super tempting to never use the gun. And that would be a massive mistake.

If you are up for it, go back through the areas you've already done and force yourself to use the gun. If you die, you die. Fight various enemies and make sure you learn how to stun them, then make sure to do visceral follow ups. Don't go straight back to the boss fight - get those fundamentals down first.

I know that sounds shitty and monotonous, sorry - it's just the best advice I have.

But, I promise, if you can do that and nail it, then beat FG, you'll be set for the rest of the game. There will be greater challenges ahead, but you'll have the fundamental ability to face them all.

That was really long, sorry.

Liveinadive wrote:

Can't be worse than

Spoiler:

Navi

Fi was already worse.


Enjoying reading all this dissection of Souls and other games.

Can't disagree that Souls is near unrelentingly oppressive and punishing, but also know that it's also about getting on its wavelength, which isn't obvious at first.

I managed to get stuck on Taurus Demon of all things for about 2 hours when I first started Dark Souls. Thought it was the game being too hard and demanding, and nearly quit. But then realised it was more a matter of trying something different, and it worked, and from that point I understood. And without that one obstacle to make you make that adjustment early on, it would be a tiresome slog. I can totally appreciate what CiT is saying about BB then, and especially the bit about dodging towards, which is so counterintuitive at first, but so important (I also thought FG was a bit too hard  - his movement in the second phase is just too quick - but how I celebrated when I finished it with a couple of visceral attacks).

Similar stories, basically, but it's a great conversation, even if it is in the wrong thread.

Did anyone else get a SOTC vibe from the latest trailer? Definitely looks like there may be a colossi or two.

Wait till you guys see how they've laid out Run and jump on this. It's gonna set off someone's OCD.

They're on the Y and B buttons meaning running and jumping requires THE CLAW