The Apple Thread
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    monkey wrote:
    Mod74 wrote:
    All that needs to happen is the user turns off that feature in the BIOS or Linux vendors (i.e. the majors) have their OS signed. There's no real conspiracy.
    Ah right. All I'd read about it was some fairly partisan stuff on some Linux sites.

    Anti-MS sentiment on Linux sites? Knock me down with a feather ;)
  • Blue Swirl
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    Surely if you buy the support package along with the laptop then this is really a nothing jab at apple.  boohoo, you can't afford support but you can afford a huge ass amount of cash for a spangly piece of tech.... hmmmm.

    It's not about being able to afford the care package. It's about Apple claiming to be environmentally friendly, and then glueing all the parts in. It's about not being able to upgrade after you've bought it. It's about not being able to repair it without sending it off to Apple.
    Its a non issue for me obviously but I may just be fortunate that I can choose my own equipment for work and we have a refresh policy of 3 years which happily coterminates with when the applecare support runs out.

    This. I have to buy my own computers. For me, a computer that's going to last me three years is too short a time. I got six years out of my iBook G3 with careful upgrading, and I plan on getting the same amount of time out of my MacBook Pro.
    The important point is that you should always have a backup of your system using time machine or some other such app or cloud service so that "if" not when your machine braeks you can access everything from the replacement system asap.


    Having a back up is a must, yes, but you could avoid having to use your spare machine if you could, I dunno, put a new battery in the current one yourself. Again, it's not about not being able to afford the Apple Care, it's about being able to fix/upgrade my own stuff. This is like buying a car with the bonnet bolted shut and just saying "well, you should have bought the care package and have another car on stand-by". Why not just unbolt the bonnet?

    It just seems to me that they've done a lot of stuff for bizarre reasons; I mean, why the hell would you ever glue the RAM in? Why claim environmental friendliness (which Apple do quite a good job on, truth be told) and then glue the glass to the aluminium, making it completely unrecyclable?

    As the article I posted said, it comes down to us. Apple are still selling the 'standard' MBPs, we'll just see what people choose: a computer that's locked shut that they'll replace in three years because the care package has run out and can't be opened, or a slightly thicker computer that you can fix yourself. I'll stick with the latter, ta.
    From your Taiwan correspondent.
  • I'm no techy and I've been a Mac user for about the last twenty years, but I have to say what little I've heard about these new retina Mac-Books doesn't appeal at all.
    It's certainly not going to make be suddenly shun Macs, I'm far too deeply dialed in for that, but it does sound like a backward step for the end user.

    what would Steve say

    g.man
    Come with g if you want to live...
  • I saw these today in the flesh and they are absolutely beautiful. Not for me though, I'm too used to the  size of my Air.
  • Blue Swirl wrote:
    Surely if you buy the support package along with the laptop then this is really a nothing jab at apple.  boohoo, you can't afford support but you can afford a huge ass amount of cash for a spangly piece of tech.... hmmmm.
    It's not about being able to afford the care package. It's about Apple claiming to be environmentally friendly, and then glueing all the parts in. It's about not being able to upgrade after you've bought it. It's about not being able to repair it without sending it off to Apple.
    Its a non issue for me obviously but I may just be fortunate that I can choose my own equipment for work and we have a refresh policy of 3 years which happily coterminates with when the applecare support runs out.
    This. I have to buy my own computers. For me, a computer that's going to last me three years is too short a time. I got six years out of my iBook G3 with careful upgrading, and I plan on getting the same amount of time out of my MacBook Pro.
    The important point is that you should always have a backup of your system using time machine or some other such app or cloud service so that "if" not when your machine braeks you can access everything from the replacement system asap.
    Having a back up is a must, yes, but you could avoid having to use your spare machine if you could, I dunno, put a new battery in the current one yourself. Again, it's not about not being able to afford the Apple Care, it's about being able to fix/upgrade my own stuff. This is like buying a car with the bonnet bolted shut and just saying "well, you should have bought the care package and have another car on stand-by". Why not just unbolt the bonnet? It just seems to me that they've done a lot of stuff for bizarre reasons; I mean, why the hell would you ever glue the RAM in? Why claim environmental friendliness (which Apple do quite a good job on, truth be told) and then glue the glass to the aluminium, making it completely unrecyclable? As the article I posted said, it comes down to us. Apple are still selling the 'standard' MBPs, we'll just see what people choose: a computer that's locked shut that they'll replace in three years because the care package has run out and can't be opened, or a slightly thicker computer that you can fix yourself. I'll stick with the latter, ta.


    Swirl,  I still don't see the problem.   Personally I have no conscience about the "green" nature of a product.  Very few products that say they are green when broken down to how the individual parts are made and where they are shipped to and from are really green.  Toyota Prius is an excellent example.

    The point about tinkering and upgrading and the analogy of a car again I can't see.  I have my mid-2009 macbook pro and haven't upgraded anything in it.  I bought it with 8GB Ram and a 512GB 7200RPM disc and it hasn't missed a beat.  I am upgrading because its corporate policy to refresh hardware every 3 years, but I truly think it could last another couple of years at least.  Simply put if you want the flexibility to upgrade individual components then you want to get a desktop machine.  If you only want to upgrade memory then you probably shouldn't have scrimped when you bought the machine in the first place, if you want a bigger drive then again don't scrimp or alternatively be a little more regimented with what you need to be immediately available on your local machine and what you can shuffle off to an external drive.  

    Out of curiosity what can you actually "fix" yourself on an old MBP?  the optical drive?  You can't fix RAM but you could upgrade it if you didn't buy appropriately, same goes for the HDD.  other than that what else can you or should actually do yourself without the proper assistance?  I saw that iFixit ripped apple for going the route they have gone.  Surely not a massive surprise as they sell services and training which if this takes off are rendered null and void.  I wouldn't have expected them to come out and say that it was the next best thing since sliced bread because it is going to impact their revenue stream.


    keeping with the car thing...  You wouldn't buy a Ferrari and put go faster stripes on it and change the break discs and pads yourself
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    You wouldn't buy a new Ferrari if it needed new pads and discs either.
  • Depends how much it was going for.  Also which model it was.
  • Blue Swirl wrote:
    It's about not being able to upgrade after you've bought it. It's about not being able to repair it without sending it off to Apple.

    I've always thought this is sensible corporate policy to an extent.  It protects the brand; the number of older relatives/colleagues/acquaintances I've seen complaining that their "Dell is rubbish," or that "Windows is terrible" because they've taken it to a "mate" to have it fixed and it's not working properly is amazing.  

    If Apple make sure that you can't open it up and bugger around with it, or try to repair it and screw it up, then they avoid colloquial stories floating around some areas with people saying "don't get an Apple, so and so did and it broke and then it was never the same" like you can do with other instances of consumer technology.

    I can replace pretty much everything I'd need to in any Mac, and if something as major as the screen needed replacing I certainly wouldn't be doing it myself.  I also can't connect the dots between screen glued on and environmentally unfriendly either.
  • Elmlea wrote:
    Blue Swirl wrote:
    It's about not being able to upgrade after you've bought it. It's about not being able to repair it without sending it off to Apple.

    I've always thought this is sensible corporate policy to an extent.  It protects the brand; the number of older relatives/colleagues/acquaintances I've seen complaining that their "Dell is rubbish," or that "Windows is terrible" because they've taken it to a "mate" to have it fixed and it's not working properly is amazing...
    This is my argument for why macs should stay as they are re the 'closed' nature of the OS.
    The amount of people that brag about changing this and that in their PC OS only to complain 3 months later about wasteing a day doing a complete system restore is too similar a coincidence to ignore.
    Uncle Dave shouldn't be tinkering around in your system files.

    Besides you can alter system level stuff on a mac you just have to know what you are doing. And that's the way it should be.

    Live= sgt pantyfire    PSN= pantyfire
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    Ultimately they satisfy two different markets. Neither approach is right or wrong, it just depends what you want.
  • Mod74 wrote:
    Ultimately they satisfy two different markets. Neither approach is right or wrong, it just depends what you want.

    Wise words.  I've said it before, but a house with a pair of Macs, a pair of iPhones, iPods galore, an Airport Express-ed music system, and an iPad, with everything nicely shared and networked, is exactly what I want.  I have no wish to fettle, I don't want anything changed to my spec, I just want that nice Apple "it just works" quality.

    What has confused me the most about this thread is why Swirly doesn't just buy a high-end non-Apple laptop, and install Linux on it.
  • Blue Swirl
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    Because OS X is amazing. Because "it just works" and "can be opened up" are not mutually exclusive. (See: the Mac mini. Having the door on the bottom doesn't make it more crash-prone.) Because "user friendly" and "based on open technology" are also not mutually exclusive. (See: Safari (HTML5 and WebKit), OS X (Darwin).)

    I've said it before and I'll say it again, I fell in love with OS X because it was a) more open than Windows, b) more secure than Windows c) more powerful than Windows and d) more user friendly than Windows and the GNU/Linuxes and BSDs of the world. It was a perfect blend of openness and power, wrapped up in that lovely friendly Aqua UI. OS X proves that 'powerful and open' does not preclude 'user friendly and stable'. Think about it, which OS has a reputation for being clunky to use and crashing a lot? Windows. Which OS is the most proprietary, with the least open components? Windows. Closed = stable or closed = user friendly are both obviously false. If it were true, Windows would be the most user friendly operating system on the planet by a wide margin.

    The way Apple are heading now is counter to that. You buy the computer from them, and get all your software either from them or via them off the App Store. Mountain Lion will have Gate Keeper and you just know it'll be on by default. ("It'll make you more secure" is bull crap of the highest order, by the way.) Where as I can open up the bottom of my MacBook Pro and put new hardware in (I've upped the RAM and have a HDD three times bigger than the one it came with), the new RMBP's components are glued down. Only a handful of years ago that would have been laughed at, now people are shrugging their shoulders. I'm never going to fix my own car, but I still wouldn't buy one with the bonnet bolted shut. My Mum is never going to upgrade her Mac mini, but it's nice knowing that I can put a new HDD in for her if something goes wrong.

    The way things are heading is frightening to me. Genuinely. If we keep closing up tech like this, it's going to turn around and bite us in the ass. We use these computers to do everything these days; run our social lives, manage our finances, work on documents and play games. We need these things to be as clear and open as possible.

    In addition, if we keep going this route, we're going to end up with an entire generation of kids who are mindless consumers of "apps", who have no idea how the things that run their lives work. That is not a good place for us to be. The world needs people like Steve Woz to create the next great thing, and they'll have a much better chance to do that with open tech. In the 21st century when "digital life" is indistinguishable from your day to day life, we cannot afford to give away this much power to one company that has more control over what your devices can do than you do. (And no, before anyone says it, it's not Apple's tech once I've bought it. Once it's in my hands it's mine to do with as I please, within the bounds of morality and legality.)

    I'm not saying that Apple need to release everything under the GPL and give it all away for zero cost, I'm not saying that Apple should stop making iPads and shut down the App Stores, I'm just saying that they also don't need to close everything up like they're doing now. They don't need to glue the fucking RAM into the RMBP. They don't need to make it so that iOS devices can only get software from the App Store.

    In a world where resources are a major concern, the unfixable, unrecyclable RMBP is a minor disaster. We don't need computers that have redundancy built-in. I mean, what do we use our machines for, most of the time? Visiting webpages and writing emails, that kind of crap. I'm pretty sure I did that no problem on my 486 in 1999. Most of us are walking around with devices many thousands of times more powerful than the machines that got man to the moon in our goddamn pocket. We need to be making computers that lost longer, not shorter.

    So, why haven't I got a laptop and put GNU/Linux on it? Because I like Apple tech. I'm just not sure I like Apple any more. We need to be demanding better of the richest company in the world, or we're in for a crappy future.
    From your Taiwan correspondent.
  • Swirl,  earn more money and just buy the right hardware when you are given the opportunity.  Alternatively cry into you corn flakes.  90% of the applications I use are not from the AppStore, so from my perspective I still don't see your point and locking down the hardware serves perfectly the purpose of ensuring you have an operational system without fucking about when you absolutely need it.
  • Microsoft are making better UIs than Apple now.  There, I said it.
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    I do agree with a lot of what Swirl says, but I've no opposition to there being both types of device on the market and computers moving from confusing hobbyist type affairs (witness me trying to spec a gaming PC) to more pick up and play and never bost consumer focussed ones.

    I suppose if the one and only manufacturer who sells the OS you want is heading down that road it would be less comfortable, but the Microsoft Surface is essentially a sealed unit and whilst it's not massively appealing to be locked forever with the RAM, CPU and SSD it comes with, I can see the logic. (plus they've added SD support for some expansion, natch)
  • Surely nobody can complain about ultra-portables being non-upgradable?  If you made them upgradable, you'd probably do something like double their size.
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    True, and I'm not complaining about the Surface or Air. (Surface to Air, there's a tech site headline waiting to happen)

    I don't know how UltraBook things stand but I would agree there's room for complaint on the MacBook Pro.

    Apple have made much hay with the "I want a simple computer" crowd, but they've also made much in the "Pro" crowd. I can see how a locked down build might generate consternation.
  • What do you consider is the "Pro" crowd?  Just curious.
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    Photoshop, Premier, Illustrator, In Design, Logic, Final Cut....till they killed it etc etc.
  • so the only real issue then is memory as the SSD will have upgrade options due it being a replaceable part, albeit by apple.  The max memory that it can hold is 16GB which is limited by the motherboard architecture.  If you buy 16GB today then you are already at the maximum regardless and it doesn't really add a huge cost if you go for the upgraded memory.  I don't imagine that many of the pro crowd would want to fix the laptop themselves seen as in prior macbooks you were limited to what you could fix anyway.   Still not seeing the "big" problem here.
  • I thought the big problem was that it's barely capable of running a screen of that resolution?
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    Mod74 wrote:
    Related I've heard a lot of complaints that the SSD size is ridiculous if you're working in HD video, and the upgrade costs 3x times the retail cost of what the SSD would be. Which is unfortunate as the rest of the machine seems almost ideally suited to that task.
    Sending back to Apple for an upgrade isn't especially attractive if you're paying for the service and through the arse for the part.

    I guess if someone else picks up your IT bill you wouldn't care. I'd guess a good proportion of creative folk are independents though.

    It's a good chunk out of your income if you need to put a thousand pounds of your income aside every year for new PCs.
  • isanbard
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    With admittedly little to base the assumption on, I also thought that a 1gig GPU is going to struggle doing anything more than basic SO type stuff at that res. It's fine enough for running at normal resolution though so I guess you could run it for Safari, Mail and iPhoto and then drop down to normal res for the odd bout of gaming. 

    Seems a bit of a luxury for the average user so I'd still probably go for the normal, old school, new Pro one (FFS Apple…) if I was in the market.
    GT: isanbard PSN: DAQster DS-FC: 0361-6861-4525 AC: Bumdirt
  • Is anyone here using the most recent iMac model as a display for a PS3, 360 or any other HDMI device?  If so, how?  I've been looking at adapters, but they seem to be for older iMacs, or awfully expensive, or not very good.
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    Does the iMac have the ability to display an external source? I wouldn't have thought it did, same reason you can't use a laptop for the same thing.
  • You'll be able to pipe it in through a. USB/FireWire video capture unit, but I'd imagine the lag would make it pretty annoying for action games.
  • Hmmm.  Thing is, adkmette is moving into my flat in August.  I currently have both consoles under the telly.  She says that'll be fine, but I thought it'd be nice to take one into my computer room so that I'm not always hogging the big telly.  At the same time, I'd like to finally put a computer into my computer room.  Might have to go for a Mac mini and get a monitor that will take an HDMI input.
  • Or take the opportunity to get more into PC gaming when you're not in front of the TV. Steam on a bootcamped iMac and you've got the best of all worlds.
  • I've got a fair few games on Steam, some of which are Mac compatible, as far as I know.  So that's a possibility.

    While I'm exploring the various options, is the HDMI out of the Mac mini only useful for using it as a media hub, or would using that to feed a 21 or so inch monitor be crisp enough for reading small text etc?  And what's the difference between monitors and TVs these days anyway, they seem to sport the same specs, inputs etc.

    Sorry, I lost track of all this a few years ago.
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    The basic technology is exactly the same.

    Monitors tend to have smaller screens and higher resolutions, TVs the opposite.

    You wouldn't enjoy using a computer on a 32" 720p TV screen as it would look fairly blocky, you'd probably get away with a 1080p set.

    TVs tend to have motion control processing to smooth out TV type images which is great for TV but shit for gaming. Ideally you want to be able to turn any picture processing off for gaming, most sets allow you to do this but double check.

    Monitors tend to have faster response times as low response times would make using the PC (and gaming) feel weird.

    Oh, and TVs obviously have tuners in. Monitors don't.

    There's no reason why a TV can't be pressed into monitor service, nor why a monitor can't be pressed into TV (via a non aerial* source) service. I think the only really limiting factor between the two is how big or small you want the screen.

    *except an external Freeview box of course.

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