Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

dynamiteReady

With all the JK Rowling talk in the 'Cancel' thread spilling over, I'd noticed that the recent scandal in Scotland hadn't been covered in this thread at all.

I have a limited understanding of this subject, and will only Google so much, but my 'blurry JPEG' looks like this:

- First, the country attempts to pass a bill to (essentially) expedite the process of the legal side of gender reassignment
- Then Rishi pisses all over the progressive move, by invoking Westminster privilege
- Then, a story surfaces about a convicted male rapist, applying for a change of gender, to seemingly avoid going to a male prison

The whole issue is complicated, but I think this flashpoint encapsulates concerns on both sides quite succinctly.
I won't lie. I'm not sure where I stand on this. But my belief is this. Everyone should have a right to do what they want, so long as there is no harm to anyone else. And identifying as one gender or another harms no-one to my mind.

This rapist clearly did though.

How do you handle a situation like that?

drumbeg

dynamiteReady wrote:

I won't lie. I'm not sure where I stand on this. But my belief is this. Everyone should have a right to do what they want, so long as there is no harm to anyone else. And identifying as one gender or another harms no-one to my mind. This rapist clearly did though. How do you handle a situation like that?

I have arrived at a similar position and have decided that in practice the issue is effectively un-resolvable.

That sounds pretty bleak! But I just don't see a solution that protects all parties.

Vela

Handle it like normal: with medical and psychological assessment.

People don't transition lightly. They need referrals from doctors, qualified assessment by psychologists and other mental health services, counselling, second opinions and more. It's not a matter of someone wanting to wear a dress one day and that's that.

If it is a cynical strategy, it should weigh on their record as some.form.of recidivist behaviour that sees them assessed as a potentially greater risk of reoffending.

If the person is legitimately transgender, afford them that dignity. If they are a risk of committing violence in prison, or at elevated risk of receiving violence, segregation from the risk environment as would be covered in a prison SOP.

These issues are resolvable separately.

Brooks

a story surfaces about a convicted male rapist, applying for a change of gender, to seemingly avoid going to a male prison

The fact we even know about this suggests some amount of bullshit filtering is engaged already?

Diluted Dante

Holding a GRC doesn't mean you will be placed in a womens prison. Like any other prisoner they are risk assessed.

dynamiteReady

Brooks wrote:

a story surfaces about a convicted male rapist, applying for a change of gender, to seemingly avoid going to a male prison

The fact we even know about this suggests some amount of bullshit filtering is engaged already?

I think the accused was able to engage in a number of remedial programs, as a woman, before getting blown up.

handsofblue

Right, so systems need to be in place. Just cos something happened before doesn't mean it has to be like that in perpetuity.

Individual risk assessments and appropriate housing are a bare minimum for all inmates. The fact is this shines a light on our prison service's inability to cope with individuals and ensure safety. Criminals are gonna crim, even when they're in jail.

dynamiteReady

handsofblue wrote:

Right, so systems need to be in place. Just cos something happened before doesn't mean it has to be like that in perpetuity. Individual risk assessments and appropriate housing are a bare minimum for all inmates. The fact is this shines a light on our prison service's inability to cope with individuals and ensure safety. Criminals are gonna crim, even when they're in jail.

The thing is though, is that some people will see this a one point, close to the harmful extreme, on a continuum.

Where participation in a sporting event is probably somewhere on the other side of that continuum, but presents a similar conundrum.

Facewon

So posie parker has been visiting us.

Its been a shitshow, but informative on many fronts.

Flat out nazis rocked up to the Melbourne event. Protected by cops.

Pauline Hanson (one nation - our ukip equiv) rocked up to the Canberra event. Indigenous senator lidia Thorpe got thrown to ground by cops trying to get near to the terf protest.

Worse, another event in Sydney had a bunch of Christian extremists attacking trans folks in the streets.

There's a catholic church up there that has spawned a group called "Christian lives matter" they're looking months away from going full Charlottesville, Tbh.

Just before the tour started, Andrew bogut, former nba centre, and current right wing podcaster and general shit opinion haver made a big deal of a trans athlete applying to play in wnbl1 south. (regional semi professional league.)

Boguts coverage brought out the worst takes. And some folks I've liked and talked hoops with went full reactionary. Sad to see.

As mentioned above by hands, it appears there are processes in place. And the athlete in question was jumping through the hoops (forgive pun), but with bogut creating a fuss the process got bumped up to basketball Australia.

Still waiting on results there, but pretty sure this could have been a quiet process if bogut hadn't stuck his nose in.

Sad state of affairs all round.

handsofblue

Oh, what's going on with Posie Parker? Is she Not A Good Person? Or are shitheads reacting to her?

DrewMerson

handsofblue

Aaaah, yep, got her confused with Parker Posey. Hadn't heard of her before, can't say I'm glad to know of her now.

poprock

handsofblue wrote:

Aaaah, yep, got her confused with Parker Posey.

I made the same mistake at first. Like, “Aw, no. Don’t tell me Parker Posey’s been Milkshake Ducked.” But it’s okay. It’s an entirely different person being shit.

Facewon

https://youtu.be/4b44I1pNxM8

Could defo skip through some of the deep cuts in here, but it does show the Melbourne stuff pretty well.

Canberra would have happened while recording I think.

b0r1s

poprock wrote:

handsofblue wrote:

Aaaah, yep, got her confused with Parker Posey.

I made the same mistake at first. Like, “Aw, no. Don’t tell me Parker Posey’s been Milkshake Ducked.” But it’s okay. It’s an entirely different person being shit.

Phew

Facewon

Lol, NZ really didn't go well for posie.

The fReE SpeaCh discourse around it all had been fuckin amateur hour though. Fuck me.

Vela

Guessing the Murdoch fake press will be ordering a truck full of pearls to clutch at for the next month's campaign in their culture war.

Vela

I'm going to quote a bit from an interview from a Tasmanian Liberal Party politician on the Let Women Speak mob. Keep in mind this lady being quoted, Bridget Archer, has form for voting against her own party. She is a genuinely decent person.

Liberal MP Bridget Archer told me this week that rally organisers had "almost stopped pretending that it's about women's rights and they are openly saying that it is an anti-transgender protest".

"If they want to talk about women's safety, I don't think that the issue of ... same-sex bathrooms is where the issue of women's safety is at," she said. "The most unsafe place for women to be is in their own homes."

Archer added: "In terms of safety, the transgender community have much higher rates of violence perpetrated against them than even women do, so I think it's just nonsense."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-26/kellie-jay-keen-minshullanti-trans-rights-liberal-party-debate/102142130

Facewon

Between twitters broken algos and the general state of the discourse, I don't think I've seen more horrible intractable stances on a subject, maybe ever. Reading all the various takes on the protests etc has just been a shitshow.

For all the overblown BS about posey Parker copping tomato soup. (zomg "violence")

The protest did get wild and wooly and amongst many other things a young bloke definitely did punch an old woman who was there for the let women speak rally. Clear footage of it and its not good.

Outside of that, I dunno, just trying to read anything about sex and gender is a big mess. And the comments under any post of the subject are just a trash fire. On balance GC folks seem to post much more nasty stuff and it also seems that nasty stuff is coming from well known folks. There's certainly some unhelpful and nasty posted by trans folk, but every time it's highlighted it seems to be some rando with 3 followers, so I dunno, partridge shrug.

The general tone of things on the sports front is worse. Christ on a bike sports nuts dudes have the worst takes on basically everything.

Anyhoo.

Funkstain

But isn't this the case with any argument online?

I was reading this British participation in slavery: https://davidallengreen.com/

It highlights such an important point - that bad things happen because most people let them happen, and justify it to themselves - which has horribly clear ramifications: people have always been shitty. Utterly rubbish at seeing beyond their own needs, their own prejudices. Justifying the most horrific treatment of each other. We haven't 'evolved' or made any progress, other than by fighting and dying for rights which have really, very fucking slowly, achieved things when more sympathetic people temporarily take charge.

The only difference now is we can all express this horribleness freely and broadly without consequence, so we see it more clearly and plainly that people are on the whole shitty when it comes to treating others well

Facewon

Maybe. I dunno, just seems way more toxic to me. I could be wrong.

my other observation with the GC folks particularly here, it seems, is that they're very much one issue folks. Absolute anecdata on my behalf, but especially when the nazis showed up in melb, there's all these folks going down false flag routes and not believing they were who they said they were, even though there's a raft of antifa folks who've done the yards, and Tom Sewell was literally at the front with no mask, and he is famously and unambiguously an outright Nazi asshole.

Just an absolute raft of middle aged folks doing my first protest.

Armitage_Shankburn

This is your reminder that this thread started about misogyny in the sense it means , has meant and has happened for 1000s of years affecting circa 51% of all of the people who have ever existed, and is now and has for some time been about a much smaller group of people, a much newer form of prejudice (or conversation about prejudice), much of it aimed at a subset of people who experience misogyny and conceive of it as I described above. Maybe, just maybe, this basic fact - about this thread - will give you a clue as to why some among that group feel aggrieved that the conversation has taken this turn. Someone (male) ITT recently described this woman who was in NZ as a cunt. Unironically, and no one picked him up on it.

Maybe, just maybe, as a group of mostly men, mostly straight, overwhelmingly white and privileged folk, we should reflect on that.

Armitage_Shankburn

But no let's pile on the terfs! Cunts the lot of them

Dark Soldier

I have met plenty of women, and men, and even animals who are cunts rbf.

Armitage_Shankburn

Oh maybe it was another thread

Armitage_Shankburn

DrewMerson wrote:

Oh ok, he deleted it. At least that's something I guess

Vela

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

But no let's pile on the terfs! Cunts the lot of them

When the person visited Australia recently it's worth remembering that amongst her biggest supporters were neo Nazis.

This isn't exactly a peace movement.

Funkstain

It sounds like all you want is a new thread, which seems fine by me?

I think you're ascribing too much lack of thought or consideration to those (most of them...) posting in this thread in favour of transgender rights and recognitions, and I don't understand why.

The conversation, again from most of us, is nuanced and careful. People can be called cunts for good reason, whether men or women, I don't see that as necessarily a showstopper and feels very cherry picked compared to the majority of the conversation on here.

The central point - a thread about the treatment of 50% of the population shouldn't be taken over by conversation about treatment of 1% of the population - is ok, sure, bad treatment is bad treatment but in this particular case, the nuance needs to take into account how suddenly some of those 50% feel not only, er, neglected, is that the word, but also persecuted by trans rights activists, because there is overlap and worse, in some peoples views, opposition in the aims of feminism and trans rights. I believe this can be discussed just fine in here, but it also feels like a minor thing, a small meaningful compromise to the 'other side' so to speak, to create a new thread

DrewMerson

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