The Car thread - The Bear and Badger

Bob

o/

In the UK I believe we generate the vast majority of our electric from Burning fossil fuels so I'm not sure the Electric Car is going to make the air quality much better or save us from global warming. From what I remember from my A level science batteries aren't even particularly efficient.

That was all I was trying to say. I apologise for my use of the word moronic.

jdanielp

UK renewable generation is often between 20-30% these days and nuclear brings 'clean' generation up to 50% or so. Most of the rest is 'cleanish' gas, but coal and oil do still come into play to some extent. This site gives a fairly decent summary:

https://www.electricitymap.org/

Just imagine where we could be if the government backed down on their restrictions on on-shore windfarms, reduced the tax on solar, and invested in renewable research and development rather than heavily subsidising oil and gas companies.

poprock

jdanielp wrote:

UK renewable generation is often between 20-30% these days and nuclear brings 'clean' generation up to 50% or so.

Yep, but we’re talking worldwide here. The UK’s contribution to global vehicle emissions is just pissing in the wind. On top of that, the entire global contribution to greenhouse gases from private vehicles is also pissing in the wind … the contributions from haulage and industry absolutely dwarf them.

We could all drive V12 Lambos to work and back with nary a wink towards the environment if we persuaded the world’s governments that heavy industry and global haulage needed to change their habits for the better. A single day’s shipping probably pumps out more crap than every private vehicle in the UK will over their entire usable lifetimes.

All that sort of thing is why I don’t think the argument matters. Changing emissions habits on our private vehicles would, however, make our cities nicer places to live and breathe.

WorKid

Arguments for preventing global warming and improving air quality in city centres do seem to have been mixed up a bit here, yes.

Bob

The point being that city air quality shouldn't be at the expense of global warming and is debatable anyway with fossil fuelled power stations.. it's not a massive leap.

Anyway only cunts by electric cars and think it's some wonderful sacrifice for city centre air quality.

jdanielp

Bob wrote:

Anyway only cunts by electric cars and think it's some wonderful sacrifice for city centre air quality.

I had better cancel my reservation... The massive advantage of electric cars and renewable energy generation is that they are already cheaper/less carbon intensive over their working life regardless of where the resources come from. The major drawbacks are that most of that expense comes up front and that the infrastructure will need to be substantially upgraded. They do still cause air quality issues via brake/tyre particulates though.

Dinostar77

I'd like the government to subsidise the move to all electric. the current hybrid cars are abit crap as they said on Fifth Gear. A 3 series BMW hybrid can do 28 miles on electric before the petrol kicks in. If the answer is all electric, then make it more affordable to the general public at large. I'm sure there must be a huge percentage of the population who buy their cars used and for under 7k. 10 year old plus models because they can't afford anything more expensive.

Kow

Almost all the second hand cars on sale here are diesel but you'd have to be nuts to buy one.

jdanielp

Dinostar77 wrote:

I'd like the government to subsidise the move to all electric. the current hybrid cars are abit crap as they said on Fifth Gear. A 3 series BMW hybrid can do 28 miles on electric before the petrol kicks in. If the answer is all electric, then make it more affordable to the general public at large. I'm sure there must be a huge percentage of the population who buy their cars used and for under 7k. 10 year old plus models because they can't afford anything more expensive.

They are still offering up to a £4500 discount https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get

The Daddy

Hydrogen fuel. That’s the boy right there.

Bob

The Daddy wrote:

Hydrogen fuel. That’s the boy right there.

This.

WorKid

Zoe is what, £14k new? Leaf is cheap too. Running costs are peanuts.

Jaco

Electricity is the future, no doubt. How we achieve "clean" electricity is another matter (and it's all relative – no industrial process is ever entirely "clean"). Hydrogen is the sensible and obvious answer, what with being the most abundant resource in the universe and releasing vast quantities of energy and all. But the infrastructure (on a mass scale) is decades away. By which point, if things carry on as they are, Mad Max: Fury Road will be a historical documentary.

It's. Too. Late.

Bob

WorKid wrote:

Zoe is what, £14k new? Leaf is cheap too. Running costs are peanuts.

A Zoe has a lost price of £20k and a leaf is nearly £30k

Each take 8-11hours to charge and can do about 60 miles if you use either heating or air con

Happily residuals are terrible and a Zoe requires at least £45 a month to lease the awful batteries.

The good news is the replacements are about £5000 - £7000 grand

Might as well walk while
Smoking fivers

The Daddy

Saw a tv prog many years ago where this bloke was saying he’d come up with this engine that ran really well on basically any old shite. Didn’t go into details cos apparently he’d sold the tech to a big oil company. How true this was I don’t know, but the point is, given the capitalist nature of our energy supply, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s plenty viable clean options that just aren’t profitable enough to be mainstream yet.

So yeah, we’re all fucked.

Bob

This is why I said before it’s not a question of electric cars it needs wholesale personal change

poprock

I reckon the best bang for your buck would come from changing the fuel tech for international shipping. Followed by reinventing farming worldwide.

Good luck with either of those.

Thing is, being nihilistic (realistic) about these things doesn’t mean ignoring the smaller things we can do. Just don’t pat governments on the back for doing the small things while they ignore the bigger problems. Things like championing cycle lanes in city centres don’t hurt, but they don’t stop cities in the Middle East from boiling within our lifetimes.

Bob

Yeah we’re fucked

Time to invent the terraforming technology

Bob

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45786690

Jaco

Hmm. A lot of speculation and rehashed old info in there. Aiming for hits by riding the wave of the recent climate change announcement, I reckon.

jdanielp

jdanielp wrote:

They are still offering up to a £4500 discount https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get

The grant for 'all electric' vehicles is apparently going down to £3500 by Friday 9th November whilst grants for plug-in hybrids will be removed completely.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/12/uk-plug-in-grant-ends-phev-incentive-reduces-all-electric-vehicle/

The Daddy

Hopefully they’ll shift some of that budget back to home solar panels. I think there’s more potential there.

Dinostar77

jdanielp wrote:

jdanielp wrote:

They are still offering up to a £4500 discount https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-grants/what-youll-get

The grant for 'all electric' vehicles is apparently going down to £3500 by Friday 9th November whilst grants for plug-in hybrid will be removed completely.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/12/uk-plug-in-grant-ends-phev-incentive-reduces-all-electric-vehicle/

Motor industry not happy about this. There's no incentive when the grant goes.

We were having a chat about this at work, in agreement that the batteries aren't there quite yet (range / recharge time etc) and repair costs could be hideous for hybrid/electric components.

Dinostar77

On a sidenote, hypothetical question, if you had 45k to spend and could pick between the following cars, which would you go with.
1. RS3
2. M3
3. AMG C63

A mate has had his S3 written off. From Insurance money plus his own cash he's gonna buy one of the above. He's gone with buying an RS3, a few of us have said hypothetically we'd take the C63 and one said the M3. Wondered what people on here would go for from the choices above.

poprock

Audi all the way for me.

jdanielp

Got a free upgrade to a non-AMG Mercedes C-class in Belgium in the summer, which was nice, so I'd likely go for the AMG C63. However, I'd rather buy a Tesla Model 3 with some options... Shame it's not available here.

Bob

Had a go in a c63 it’s ridiculously fast but I’d go Audi every time that Quattro will pay you back handsomely in the real world

Jaco

Well the M3 is a bit wild in the current iteration (heard many a story of untimely hedge/ditch interfaces) and I've driven the RS3 and, while biblically fast, it was as dull as ditchwater from a handling perspective.

So C63. V8s always win.

Verecocha

RS3, hands down.

Bob

Jaco wrote:

Well the M3 is a bit wild in the current iteration (heard many a story of untimely hedge/ditch interfaces) and I've driven the RS3 and, while biblically fast, it was as dull as ditchwater from a handling perspective.

So C63. V8s always win.

The c63 if anything wilder and less sorted on the chassis. Turn the tcs off and your going to bin it

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