The Star Wars thread - "Chewie, we're home." - The Bear and Badger

superflyninja

RedDave2 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Just found out about the leaked Trevorrow script for episode 9, this sounds much better (and uses the big bad already in the series, Kylo Ren): https://www.polygon.com/2020/1/16/21067246/colin-trevorrow-script-star-wars-duel-of-fates-episode-9-reported-leaked-details

I still don't get the argument that last jedi kills off the only big bad - when I saw it I thought it was clearly setting a Kylo led new order as the big bad for the third movie. But whatever.

Problem is Kylo is a shit baddie. Untrained Finn and Rey fought circles around him in TFA. And apparently, TLJ continues directly on from TFA.....so its not like Kylo went off and had a big training montage and buffed up. He was still shit.

If they wanted Kylo as the big bad then thats perfectly fine. But do it right. Have him go off somewhere and have his own Dagobah scene to learn from a dark master. Have him mature in power so that he is a credible threat. Not just point a finger and go "duuuurh you da boss now...durrrrh"

Yossarian

You didn’t read the article did you?

Roujin

Tbf Kylo Ren was shot with a bowcaster minutes before that fight takes place.

I actually liked Kylo Ren as a basically not very well trained lacky of Snoke. I mean no disrespect to ol' Hayden Christensen, but Adam Driver nailed being the annoying whiny sith aspirant, even with the extra burden of doing it while also trying to deliver the fucking awful dialogue.

Tbh this trilogy didnt need to do any maturing of powers or training, just tell us the story, if the Jedi and the Sith are all gone, just have Rey and Kylo do stuff without any real control, would have at least been interesting to watch two people beat the shit out of each other with just whatever command of the force they are able to intuit without proper training. Basically we could have had the fight from They Live, and they blew it.

We could have had a nice, tightly scripted look at what happened in the fallout after the empire collapsed when Leia and Han did a shit job of raising a kid guaranteed to be dummy thicc with the force and the galaxy just teetered on the brink of sliding back into an authoritarian nightmare for a bit if he wasn't stopped. Instead we got babies first attempt to think you could ape Avengers Endgame without any of the setup and after throwing the entire 40 year back catalogue of stories directly proceeding and following your films into the bin, because you know best.

superflyninja

Yossarian wrote:

You didn’t read the article did you?

I think we both know the answer to that. But I wasnt replying based on the article. Just on reddaves comment.

Roujin

Also re the article, this synopsis:

Treverrow Save Us Pls wrote:

As the script rolls along, Rey continues her Jedi training and explores the galaxy with Poe and BB-8 to search for answers on how to fix the Jedi order. Kylo still goes to Mustafar, just like in Rise of Skywalker, but in this version he finds a Sith Holocron with a hologram of Palpatine — the only time he appears in the film. The hologram was originally intended for Darth Vader, and sends Kylo to train with Palatine’s former master, Tor Valum. Tor Valum — a ripped, 7,000 year-old Lovecraftian alien — trains him briefly, but Kylo leaves to find Rey when he’s defeated by a vision of Darth Vader in a Force cave, similar to the one on Dagobah.

Kylo and Rey eventually cross paths on a planet called Mortis and begin to fight. Rey believes some part of Ben still exists in Kylo, but she falters when he admits that he killed her parents on the orders of Supreme Leader Snoke. Near the end of the fight Force ghosts of Luke, Obi-Wan, and Yoda appear in hopes of saving Ben Solo, but he’s too far gone he is “extinguished.”

Is also fucking hot garbage if its accurate. Like, it's just pap, pure "OMG REMEMBER THIS THING FROM OLD FILMS THAT HAPPENED" slop.

superflyninja

Ive read the article now. Funny, the alleged script also has Kylo Ren have his Dagobah moment. Just maybe because it was necessary to establish him as a threat again.

Yossarian

Roujin wrote:

Also re the article, this synopsis:

Treverrow Save Us Pls wrote:

As the script rolls along, Rey continues her Jedi training and explores the galaxy with Poe and BB-8 to search for answers on how to fix the Jedi order. Kylo still goes to Mustafar, just like in Rise of Skywalker, but in this version he finds a Sith Holocron with a hologram of Palpatine — the only time he appears in the film. The hologram was originally intended for Darth Vader, and sends Kylo to train with Palatine’s former master, Tor Valum. Tor Valum — a ripped, 7,000 year-old Lovecraftian alien — trains him briefly, but Kylo leaves to find Rey when he’s defeated by a vision of Darth Vader in a Force cave, similar to the one on Dagobah.

Kylo and Rey eventually cross paths on a planet called Mortis and begin to fight. Rey believes some part of Ben still exists in Kylo, but she falters when he admits that he killed her parents on the orders of Supreme Leader Snoke. Near the end of the fight Force ghosts of Luke, Obi-Wan, and Yoda appear in hopes of saving Ben Solo, but he’s too far gone he is “extinguished.”

Is also fucking hot garbage if its accurate. Like, it's just pap, pure "OMG REMEMBER THIS THING FROM OLD FILMS THAT HAPPENED" slop.

Surely the only bit like that is the training section.

Still would’ve been better than RoS.

LivDiv

Wouldnt the logical thing to do with the big bad be to keep it as Snoke with the dead Snoke being a clone and that whole routine in TLJ being a ruse to convince Rey to trust Kylo?

I cant think of a reason that Snoke couldn't be cloning himself rather than Palps cloning Snokes.

bad_hair_day

Cloning Palps is no Snoke.

SPEEDER

Roujin

I dunno, but that script sounds like lazy, sloppy mess.

Why do you need to have Kylo have a vision of vader like Luke? Why not write something new for him to do instead?

Why go to Mustafar again? Why not go somewhere new and interesting instead?

Why would Palps leave a holocron message for Vader anywhere? They talked to each other all the time, Palps is his boss, it would literally have been more effort to do the holocron than just book a small meeting room somewhere on the death star and say "Yo Annie, you kinda beta, go hit up the homie Tor Valum and get swole."

Why would we uncover 9 movies into the series that the emporer was trained by Shoggoth, it's hardly payoff or some mysterious veil being lifted. Like is he darth palguis then? Was it supposed to be a call back to Episode 3? And why oh why would you look at star wars, the design language of star wars, the many, many reference pieces for art direction that have been created over the decades and think "Ah, of course, lovecraftian horror is the final piece of the visual jigsaw"

Why would the force ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi or Yoda have any effect on talking Kylo Ren round to the light? They are characters who only have impact with the audience, Kylo Ren will have literally only heard about them second hand from Luke, or Han. Also force ghosts are super lame and shouldnt be used because it smacks of needing a maguffin to change the actions of a character.

Predicto - it would have been equally as bad as RoS from the sounds of it, and Tor Valium would have got the same laugh out of me as fucking palps on his little robot arm did.

Yossarian

Roujin wrote:

I dunno, but that script sounds like lazy, sloppy mess.

Why do you need to have Kylo have a vision of vader like Luke? Why not write something new for him to do instead?

Vader was the person was that Ren was trying to live up to from the first of the trilogy onwards. It makes sense to be him.

Why go to Mustafar again? Why not go somewhere new and interesting instead?

I guess, but that’s pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

Why would Palps leave a holocron message for Vader anywhere? They talked to each other all the time, Palps is his boss, it would literally have been more effort to do the holocron than just book a small meeting room somewhere on the death star and say "Yo Annie, you kinda beta, go hit up the homie Tor Valum and get swole."

“Vader, if you are listening to this, it is because I am dead, likely by your hand…”

Why would we uncover 9 movies into the series that the emporer was trained by Shoggoth, it's hardly payoff or some mysterious veil being lifted. Like is he darth palguis then? Was it supposed to be a call back to Episode 3? And why oh why would you look at star wars, the design language of star wars, the many, many reference pieces for art direction that have been created over the decades and think "Ah, of course, lovecraftian horror is the final piece of the visual jigsaw"

Ren needs a trainer, they created one. Not sure it needs much more than that.

Why would the force ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi or Yoda have any effect on talking Kylo Ren round to the light? They are characters who only have impact with the audience, Kylo Ren will have literally only heard about them second hand from Luke, or Han. Also force ghosts are super lame and shouldnt be used because it smacks of needing a maguffin to change the actions of a character.

Fair, but they fail, so it wouldn’t have mattered much.

Predicto - it would have been equally as bad as RoS from the sounds of it, and Tor Valium would have got the same laugh out of me as fucking palps on his little robot arm did.

I’d be amazed if anything could be equally as bad as RoS, RoS was hot garbage.

GooberTheHat

Ray should have flipped, kylo redeems himself and defeats her, and becomes Ben Skywalker. Would have been a much better ending.

ShabbyMcCrabby

Yossarian wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

I'd still rate Attack of the Clones as the worst of the Star Wars movies. Rise was bad and a mess but JJ did well enough with Force Awakens. I might put rise over any of the Prequels to be honest and that Solo movie is pretty poor too.

RoS reintroduced a major character to the trilogy not even in the film itself, but in fucking Fortnite and then started the film off as if this development was known to the audience. At least Lucas was able to manage the absolute bare-minimum story telling task of keeping plot points in the actual movies themselves.

I think the things I hated the most from RoS, apart from the extremely rushed pace of it, was that it was a cowardly film. When that ship blew up (you know the one) I was like "oh shit, alright iffy but visually stunning film you now have my attention" but then they just walk it back like cowards. They so nearly went down some interesting character development paths but then just made an Uncharted/Indiana Jones McGuffin style movie in space.

b0r1s

GooberTheHat wrote:

Ray should have flipped, kylo redeems himself and defeats her, and becomes Ben Skywalker. Would have been a much better ending.

I always wanted this. She could still have found out she was a Palp without the need for Palp in the film.

yourfavouriteuncle

This thread is the same ten pages of arguments every three months and now i think, yet again, it’s time for you to all move on until, oh say, July at least.

Minnesänger

yourfavouriteuncle wrote:

This thread is the same ten pages of arguments every three months and now i think, yet again, it’s time for you to all move on until, oh say, July at least.

Are you saying that this thread is like poetry? It rhymes?

b0r1s

I think you’ll find we are now arguing about the intro crawl so ner ner ner.

We have come so far.

Yossarian

yourfavouriteuncle wrote:

This forum is the same ten pages of arguments every three months

FTFY.

RedDave2

superflyninja wrote:

Just found out about the leaked Trevorrow script for episode 9, this sounds much better (and uses the big bad already in the series, Kylo Ren): https://www.polygon.com/2020/1/16/21067246/colin-trevorrow-script-star-wars-duel-of-fates-episode-9-reported-leaked-details

I still don't get the argument that last jedi kills off the only big bad - when I saw it I thought it was clearly setting a Kylo led new order as the big bad for the third movie. But whatever.

Problem is Kylo is a shit baddie. Untrained Finn and Rey fought circles around him in TFA. And apparently, TLJ continues directly on from TFA.....so its not like Kylo went off and had a big training montage and buffed up. He was still shit. If they wanted Kylo as the big bad then thats perfectly fine. But do it right. Have him go off somewhere and have his own Dagobah scene to learn from a dark master. Have him mature in power so that he is a credible threat. Not just point a finger and go "duuuurh you da boss now...durrrrh"

I dont get the argument that Ren being defeated indicates he is a shit bad guy. Since when does the bad guy have to be the most powerful guy in the story? Has never been a problem for Joker with Batman or Hans Gruber with John McClane. He just has to be the bad guy.

And I think they missed a massive goal with Ren. As Rouj said, you had a really decent actor playing him and Driver sure looked the part. But the third film could have been a nice change in direction for the series. Instead of an organised empire taking over, Rens rage has him wanting to burn everything down - something he has a past in. He cant be saved because he has been let down by so many "teachers" and has destroyed most of them anyway.

I mean sure, Rey might be a better force user (which really makes him despise her, because she had so little training and he tried so hard) but if he is backed up by 30 Sith Knights or whatever they are called, the fight becomes interesting. For Rey, use the simple arc of she mistakenly believes that only she can save the day and distances herself from her friends but in the end they all return to help her, she realises she needs them (fucks the mary sue complaints) and they team up to stop Ren and tah-dah, Everyone loves Star Wars again

Yossarian wrote:

This forum is the same ten pages of arguments every three months

FTFY.

Isn't that why we love it?

superflyninja

RedDave2 wrote:

Just found out about the leaked Trevorrow script for episode 9, this sounds much better (and uses the big bad already in the series, Kylo Ren): https://www.polygon.com/2020/1/16/21067246/colin-trevorrow-script-star-wars-duel-of-fates-episode-9-reported-leaked-details

I still don't get the argument that last jedi kills off the only big bad - when I saw it I thought it was clearly setting a Kylo led new order as the big bad for the third movie. But whatever.

Problem is Kylo is a shit baddie. Untrained Finn and Rey fought circles around him in TFA. And apparently, TLJ continues directly on from TFA.....so its not like Kylo went off and had a big training montage and buffed up. He was still shit. If they wanted Kylo as the big bad then thats perfectly fine. But do it right. Have him go off somewhere and have his own Dagobah scene to learn from a dark master. Have him mature in power so that he is a credible threat. Not just point a finger and go "duuuurh you da boss now...durrrrh"

I dont get the argument that Ren being defeated indicates he is a shit bad guy. Since when does the bad guy have to be the most powerful guy in the story? Has never been a problem for Joker with Batman or Hans Gruber with John McClane. He just has to be the bad guy. And I think they missed a massive goal with Ren. As Rouj said, you had a really decent actor playing him and Driver sure looked the part. But the third film could have been a nice change in direction for the series. Instead of an organised empire taking over, Rens rage has him wanting to burn everything down - something he has a past in. He cant be saved because he has been let down by so many "teachers" and has destroyed most of them anyway. I mean sure, Rey might be a better force user (which really makes him despise her, because she had so little training and he tried so hard) but if he is backed up by 30 Sith Knights or whatever they are called, the fight becomes interesting. For Rey, use the simple arc of she mistakenly believes that only she can save the day and distances herself from her friends but in the end they all return to help her, she realises she needs them (fucks the mary sue complaints) and they team up to stop Ren and tah-dah, Everyone loves Star Wars again

This forum is the same ten pages of arguments every three months

FTFY.

Isn't that why we love it?

See Hans Gruber had the smarts. John McClane had grit and muscle but Hans was the man with a plan. And a militia to back him up. Kylo was just fuelled by his nu metal rage. Just to be clear, Im saying Ren would be a crap baddie unless a time out was called and he went off for a training montage. By all means then bring him back as a buff Vader man.

We can argue till the cows come home about the final two movies in the new trilogy. But the actual problem was lack of planning. Of all things, this trilogy needed a plot to cover the trilogy and cap off the Skywalker saga. The plot clearly wasnt a major concern for Lucasfilm this time around and there was no hand steering the ship.

TFA came out to largely positive opinion.
TLJ came out but decided it didnt like most of TFA and binned large chunks of it, offering very little in the way of plot advancement.
Rise came out and said fuck you TLJ and reconned stuff TLJ did and was then also lumbered with the task of finishing the new trilogy AND the entire Skywalker saga in one movie.

The inter movie in fighting should never have happened. Having a plot there to cover the trilogy I thought would have been a no brainer prerequisit. But no.

RedDave2

Completely agree the lack of plan (or reason) for the trilogy was the biggest flaw and its insane that nobody had that mapped out before a single frame of force awakens was filmed

But Again - why does ren need to be a buff buddy or even need training? You mention that gruber has his smarts and militia - Ren has the frickin first order army. He has his pure rage. And his brains could be Hux (who gradually even he grows dismayed as Rens rage becomes ever more dangerous to the whole galaxy)

If the thing is that you wanted there to be a big super bad guy for rey and the rebels to fight, than fine, that's your thing. But surely the lack of a super powerful bad guy can't be seen as a huge problem in making an entertaining movie?

superflyninja

RedDave2 wrote:

Completely agree the lack of plan (or reason) for the trilogy was the biggest flaw and its insane that nobody had that mapped out before a single frame of force awakens was filmed But Again - why does ren need to be a buff buddy or even need training? You mention that gruber has his smarts and militia - Ren has the frickin first order army. He has his pure rage. And his brains could be Hux (who gradually even he grows dismayed as Rens rage becomes ever more dangerous to the whole galaxy) If the thing is that you wanted there to be a big super bad guy for rey and the rebels to fight, than fine, that's your thing. But surely the lack of a super powerful bad guy can't be seen as a huge problem in making an entertaining movie?

Im a bit confused on the scale of the First Order. I didnt think they were a gigantic fleet or anything. Could be wrong, I've not looked at any other media really. Not having a super bad guy is fine. But like I said Im quite fuzzy on just how big a threat the First Order is. I dont know why a republic fleet couldnt take them, so as an audience member, the stakes arent very high. The FO super weapon is gone, Kylo if faced by Rey would have a 50/50 shot and we all know stormtroopers are famously bad shots. No real threat there IMO. Play it out, there is some confrontation between FO and Republic, we could have a cool battle etc. But how would it tie in with the rest of the saga? It kinda moves away from the originals I think.

Just a thought. Is the Skywalker line dead now right? Kylo is gone, Luke, Leia,Vader......Or is there talk of Luke having a child?

EvilRedEye

IIRC, as well as being an Imperial remnant that fucked off to the other side of the galaxy to regroup, some members of the New Republic ended up preferring a return to the more centralised form of government that existed during the Empire, seceded from the New Republic and basically became its political wing. So it basically exists as a political force in the mainstream bits of the galaxy as well as a weird military thing hiding in the Unknown Regions.

mistercrayon

Having a clone snoke would have been a fun repeat of the Death Star being redone.

RedDave2

Just a thought for you Ninja - the average person watching doesnt start thinking about how big the FO fleet is. They will allow the film to create the drama and the danger. A good movie can make the smallest threat viable (I mean, just think how threatening a snake in a garbage compactor was in the first star wars) The Third movie could have worked just as well if it was what Ren had at the end of TLJ (still has a pretty strong number of forces) and the remains of the rebels in a more personal conflict. Lowering the galactic stakes doesnt make the movie any less. Given the peak of Star Wars is the battle between a fallen father and his son, the more personal the better imo.

If you want to bring in a third army to spice things up and maybe give you the space battle, have the proper republic realise that unless they extinguish both the Rebels and the First Order, this cycle will continue to repeat. Or to take a different route completely, what if the danger is that Ren, in his rage against how the force has let him down, creates a virus to attack mediclhorianes and kill any potential Jedi across the galaxy and Rey and the Gang realise after the revelations of Last Jedi, that is a lot more people than Ren realises.

Surely there is more to star wars than Big Space Battles and Jedi vs Sith Light Sabre duels? Didnt like it myself but I gather that the fact the Mandelorian tried to things on a smaller scale and with a different approach was what made it popular.

mistercrayon

b0r1s wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Ray should have flipped, kylo redeems himself and defeats her, and becomes Ben Skywalker. Would have been a much better ending.

I always wanted this. She could still have found out she was a Palp without the need for Palp in the film.

Ah yes let’s make dad killer be the hero of the series. What what what?!

b0r1s

It's called redemption and he's not my dad so.

superflyninja

RedDave2 wrote:

Just a thought for you Ninja - the average person watching doesnt start thinking about how big the FO fleet is. They will allow the film to create the drama and the danger. A good movie can make the smallest threat viable (I mean, just think how threatening a snake in a garbage compactor was in the first star wars) The Third movie could have worked just as well if it was what Ren had at the end of TLJ (still has a pretty strong number of forces) and the remains of the rebels in a more personal conflict. Lowering the galactic stakes doesnt make the movie any less. Given the peak of Star Wars is the battle between a fallen father and his son, the more personal the better imo. If you want to bring in a third army to spice things up and maybe give you the space battle, have the proper republic realise that unless they extinguish both the Rebels and the First Order, this cycle will continue to repeat. Or to take a different route completely, what if the danger is that Ren, in his rage against how the force has let him down, creates a virus to attack mediclhorianes and kill any potential Jedi across the galaxy and Rey and the Gang realise after the revelations of Last Jedi, that is a lot more people than Ren realises. Surely there is more to star wars than Big Space Battles and Jedi vs Sith Light Sabre duels? Didnt like it myself but I gather that the fact the Mandelorian tried to things on a smaller scale and with a different approach was what made it popular.

I grant you, I probably have a strange way of looking at things. Its not just star wars. Ok...an example of it done right is Helms Deep, LOTR. I knew all the pieces in play. I knew the armies and their forces so for me that built the tension etc etc. The movies made it very clear. However, in the new Star Wars trilogy I just never got the sense of how big the FO was. I also was scratching my head as to where the Republic forces were. So I'm a bit confused by that. For me, that left the big threat being Snoke/Ren. I agree with you, in the hands of the right director and script Kylo as he was could have been an interesting big bombad. The door was open for any number of routes.
That is the problem with TLJ setting Kylo up as the bad bossman. It left just ONE movie to do so much. I dont NEED space battles and space wizard fights in star wars movies. But they have their place for damn sure.
And that again leads me back to TLJ, it didnt deliver anything in my view. No interesting lore, no real plot, there was nothing in the movie that got me excited or interested.

The Mandalorian works because it started as its own thing with a new set of characters to explore. There was no weight of expectation on it.
With the final trilogy in the Star Wars saga there was a huge weight. What became of Han, Luke, Leia etc etc.

And look, the fan reaction to THAT bit in the finale of S2 of Mando shows how far off base the movies were.

Yossarian

superflyninja wrote:

That is the problem with TLJ setting Kylo up as the bad bossman. It left just ONE movie to do so much.

I don’t get this at all. Movies cover character arcs in a single film constantly. Ren’s journey could easily have been accomplished in one movie.

superflyninja

Yep Im sure given the right talent and approach, a damn fine movie could have been crafted. But given what happened in the 8 preceding movies it was a big ask, too big for JJ.

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