Recreational Drugs - The Bear and Badger

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Today is not that day.

Mod74

Gosh, if only there had been a time in history when we could look back and study the effects of legalising or banning substances like we can with prohibition.

Hang on a second

http://www.artandpopularculture.com/The_Great_Binge

A lot of people seem to forget these drugs weren't always banned. The bans came into effect for a reason. And it wasn't about stopping drug lords either, Bayer/Cocaine etc.

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Yeah thats a good point. I think in the 1800s people were far more educated on substance usage than they are now. Generally they knew a lot more about the health implications back then and probably in every way possible were more informed.

equinox_code

Your point is entirely self-defeating as what separates 'The Great Binge' from today is education. In that piece you've linked to it says heroin/cocaine etc were marketed as non-addictive hobbies. No fucking wonder that led to problems! Nobody's calling for a return to that.

Nobody doesn't take drugs because they're illegal. People don't take drugs because they're aware of the damage it can cause if abused.

Your comparison to legalising murder is equally retarded. Is there really any similarity between what one person does to their own body of their own free will and what someone chooses to do to someone else against their will? Of course not. What a stupid idea.

Mod74

Yes I was definitely serious when I suggested legalising murder. Calling me retarded is clearly the correct response.

And comparing legalising drugs to alcohol Prohibition in the 30s is just as irrelevant imo. That was a substance widely and popularly used which was banned overnight in one country. There was an easy supply from Canada and Mexico. It's no wonder gangs took over. Banning it wasn't a popular move. That's completely different to legalising something that is currently banned and not widely used.

FYI, some counties in the US still prohibit alcohol. Are Al Capone types shooting up the streets there?

No, "education" about drugs 100 years ago isn't the same as it is now. It's pretty obvious measuring the effects is still valid though. Governments do take on board modern advice on dangers and put it to the peoples vote. Witness a handful of states legalising marijuana. Is there any evidence for legalising hard drugs or popular movement asking for it that would get it through a vote? Think you know the answer to that.

Yossarian

Mod74 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

If that analogy had anything to do with this discussion I wouldn't be typing a sarcy reply.

Well OK, lets for the sake of argument continue blaming the war on drugs for the deaths to ease consciences. If it is to blame, then what chance every single government in the world (without asking its people one assumes) legalises illegal drugs overnight? About the same as a frog having wings wouldn't you say. And if they were legalised, how many farmers would be forced by market forces/capitalism* to grow drug cash crops instead of feeding their communities? *boo, hiss. Funny how it's evil except when its the answer to supplying stuff you want.

Not as ridiculous, no.

As for good arguments for legalisation;

1. The war on drugs has been a costly failure which hasn't reduced supply or stopped people taking them.

2. By making drugs illegal you push the control of drugs into the hands of violent criminals with the results that we're seeing in Mexico.

3. Another consequence of handing control of drugs over to criminals is that they are far more likely to cut them with harmful substances making them far more dangerous for users.

4. There is no good argument not to.

Mod74

That's the most self centred simplistic side of an argument I've ever seen on here. And that's saying something.

Yossarian

WTF?

Jacuzzi_Jackson

Hahah. I call wind up.

Mod74

How about taking a step back into the real world for a second. Those drugs aren't legal. It's extremely unlikely they ever will be in our lifetimes.

Come up with completely unrealistic simplified solutions till the cows come home. The REALITY is the blood is all over users hands. And it will continue to be until something changes. Which it won't.

What's a few dead Mexicans.

equinox_code

Mod74 wrote:

Yes I was definitely serious when I suggested legalising murder.

So what was the point in mentioning it?

Do you actually have a point at all, or is it more a general and fluid opposition to everything on grounds of nothing?

Yossarian

Surely the REALITY is that the blood is all over the murderers hands. As for whether they'll be made legal, it's about changing people's perceptions using the cold, hard reality of the failure of the war on drugs, and by every measurable yardstick, it's been a miserable failure.

equinox_code

Mod, this really is ridiculous.

How is the suggestion of legalisation any more ridiculous, simplified or unrealistic than prohibition?

This seems to be a common theme in you arguments; everything is exactly as it is for good reason.

Yossarian

I mean, seriously, do you think that convincing drug users to stop taking drugs is somehow more realistic than legalising them? If I was going to put money on either one of them happening within our lifetimes, it wouldn't be the latter. So, rather than looking at a genuine possible solution to all of this, you're just supporting the status quo which is never going to change anything.

Mod74

Yossarian wrote:

Surely the REALITY is that the blood is all over the murderers hands. As for whether they'll be made legal, it's about changing people's perceptions using the cold, hard reality of the failure of the war on drugs, and by every measurable yardstick, it's been a miserable failure.

And? What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

OK, you think it's been a failure. You've got nothing to judge that against so it's a pretty meaningless statement. It doesn't change what's happening today.

Yossarian

I'm far from the only one who thinks it's been a failure.

equinox_code

Mod74 wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Surely the REALITY is that the blood is all over the murderers hands. As for whether they'll be made legal, it's about changing people's perceptions using the cold, hard reality of the failure of the war on drugs, and by every measurable yardstick, it's been a miserable failure.

And? What the fuck does that have to do with anything? OK, you think it's been a failure. You've got nothing to judge that against so it's a pretty meaningless statement. It doesn't change what's happening today.

It has a lot to do with everything! Are you really asking what the failure of the war on drugs has to do with a discussion on whether alternative approaches should be considered? Read that back

Mod74

equinox_code wrote:

This seems to be a common theme in you arguments; everything is exactly as it is for good reason.

I've nothing against sitting on a forum discussing alternatives that may one day happen but are extremely unlikely. But don't try and attach the current situation to some hypothetical for blame purposes.

Yossarian

Seriously, Mod, what's your solution to this? Stop people taking drugs? Do you really think that's remotely possible?

Mod74

Honestly, sitting here blaming essentially every Government in the world for your guilt (assuming you even have any) is absolutely disgusting. And you want to use the ills thread to call for greater equality but are quite happy to engage in a trade that murders thousands and ruins the lives of countless more?

Uttterly utterly self centred selfishness. Just like every single drug user I've met.

Mod74

Yossarian wrote:

Seriously, Mod, what's your solution to this? Stop people taking drugs? Do you really think that's remotely possible?

How about making them realise that their pleasure come at a price. If nobody bought them there'd be no trade. Selfishness.

equinox_code

fml

equinox_code

Yossarian wrote:

Seriously, Mod, what's your solution to this? Stop people taking drugs? Do you really think that's remotely possible?

So yes then

Yossarian

Mod, apart from the odd bit of weed every now and again which people give me, I don't take drugs any more. Even if I were to buy weed it would have been grown in this country. Try to get your facts straight before accusing me of hypocrisy.

Yossarian

equinox_code wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Seriously, Mod, what's your solution to this? Stop people taking drugs? Do you really think that's remotely possible?

So yes then

Indeed. Mod, you're being more ridiculous here than anyone defending legalisation.

Mod74

You're no better than the people that ignore sweatshops because they want cheap clothes or little less than forced labour because they want a shiny new phone.

Utterly western balanced self centred greed at the expense of others less fortunate. Blaming Government for not changing the supply chain is the supreme responsibility abdicating cop out.

You're a consumer, use your brain -if it isn't too drug addled-, buy things that don't have a massively disproportionate negative effect on the supply chain instead of burying your head in the sand or saying it's someone else's problem.

metagonzo

Mod74 wrote:

Uttterly utterly self centred selfishness. Just like every single drug user I've met.

That's a bit sweeping. Not every drug is the product of suffering.

What about the folks who quietly grow their own weed or mushrooms, for example?

Yossarian

Mod, you're talking complete bollocks on a subject which you clearly know very little about. I'm out of this discussion.

Mod74

Yossarian wrote:

Mod, apart from the odd bit of weed every now and again which people give me, I don't take drugs any more. Even if I were to buy weed it would have been grown in this country. Try to get your facts straight before accusing me of hypocrisy.

Well I think you need to a fucking lot more specific about what you mean when you say legalise drugs then. Your response was to the Mexican et al situation. Not your stoner mate growing bags of hemp in his loft.

Mod74

Yossarian wrote:

Mod, you're talking complete bollocks on a subject which you clearly know very little about. I'm out of this discussion.

Failure to justify. Cop out.

Next.

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