Currently Playing - The Bear and Badger

Moot_Geeza

I'm not saying all games in the genre. I am saying it might be fun to try one of two that hit a little differently though. If a lively one hit Game Pass you'd install it I reckon.

nick_md

If vulnerability is key, and increased player mobility reduces that, then increase enemy mobility.

I'm with moot here; I enjoy a good ol' survival horror (playing RE4 atm) but to suggest a change up in things isn't possible is crazy. It's the kind of thing where some dev does it and everyone goes oh yeah reinvented the genre why did no one else do this.

Moot_Geeza

Exactly. Even when Resi got the POD makeover it was still more or less the same game underneath the slap.

Blue Swirl

Paul the sparky wrote:

RE6 was an absolute shocker

It is, and will probably remain, the only main-line Resi I haven't completed. Tried on PS3, gave up. Tried last year in online co-op on Switch, gave up. It's not difficult, but roughly as much fun as being punched in the face.

Facewon

Counterpoint re can't add fluid movement. I'd argue some of the best stealth games found ways to free things up and still be stealth. Hitman and later splinter cell, and of course mgs.

The worst of stealth is insta fail on sighting.

Random hat tip to the division survival mode. Somewhat survival horror shoehorned into a squad shooter. Amazing game mode.

Paul the sparky

nick_md wrote:

If vulnerability is key, and increased player mobility reduces that, then increase enemy mobility.

I'm with moot here; I enjoy a good ol' survival horror (playing RE4 atm) but to suggest a change up in things isn't possible is crazy. It's the kind of thing where some dev does it and everyone goes oh yeah reinvented the genre why did no one else do this.

Yeah, go for it. Then you have to redesign the game world to account for the increased mobility of the player character and enemies as the tight, claustrophobic corridors of something like Dead Space just wouldn't work. And before you know it, you've left the genre you wanted to make behind and you're making something else.

And the something else isn't new, it's now just your average third person adventure game isn't it? It's not that it's impossible to change things, it's that changing certain things moves away from what they're going for in the first place. Not having a dodge button is a conscious design decision, it's not that they just didn't think about putting one in, they didn't want to have one because of how it affects gameplay

Moot_Geeza

Before you know it, lol. Like a group of devs could aim to create a survival horror with a twist but all of a sudden Gordon Bennet appears and they've only gone and made an average third person shooter.

And why would you have to redesign a game world you're creating from scratch?

Moot_Geeza

Paul the sparky wrote:

Not having a dodge button is a conscious design decision, it's not that they just didn't think about putting one in, they didn't want to have one because of how it affects gameplay

This is true of Dead Space but obviously the opposite is true for survival horror games that have dodge buttons.

Paul the sparky

Moot_Geeza wrote:

Before you know it, lol. Like a group of devs could aim to create a survival horror with a twist but all of a sudden Gordon Bennet appears and they've only gone and made an average third person shooter.

And why would you have to redesign a game world you're creating from scratch?

Because the level design works around what controls you're giving the player. Like you can't just add a double jump or sprint to an FPS without making alterations to the map to accommodate the extra mobility.

And I'm talking about resigning because you're talking about adding a dodge into the Dead Space remake

Paul the sparky

Moot_Geeza wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

Not having a dodge button is a conscious design decision, it's not that they just didn't think about putting one in, they didn't want to have one because of how it affects gameplay

This is true of Dead Space but obviously the opposite is true for survival horror games that have dodge buttons.

Did they revolutionize the genre? Were they as good as Dead Space? Does Dead Space need a dodge because these games have it?

For me, the answer to all of those is no

Moot_Geeza

This hasn't been a conversation about Dead Space in particular for a while though? It started with me thinking out loud about a boss fight in that game that felt archaic, but it's moved on to a discussion about a possible future for the genre in general. Or has it?

I will occasionally type things on a games forum that I won't back to the hilt, especially if the pad is still on my lap while I'm moaning about something. Perhaps Dead Space would be a worse game for most players if it had a roll button, and it's certainly one of the best survival horrors I've played. It just happens to be the most recent game of its type I've played that's made me think that the genre could do with freshening up.

acemuzzy

Team Sparkles. Moot being a moran #standard.

Paul the sparky

I'm mainly talking about Dead Space. I'm not going off piste with potential survival horror games or switching genre into stealth games as movement ties in well with stealth mechanics (OG Tenchu's grappling hook and rooftop scuttling for instance)

Moot_Geeza

Well Dead Space is a bit good on the whole and I'm hoping to finish it today. Then I can declare that it's worse than Callisto Protocol to annoy Muzzy.

nick_md

Surprising lack of creative thought itt if folks think it impossible to add mobility options to survival horror without negatively affecting the survival horror.

Paul the sparky

A button to dodge out of danger impacts the threat of being in danger to me. If you don't think so it's ok

Moot_Geeza

If it's good enough for you it's good enough for me.

afgavinstan

I enjoyed that reference. What a tune.

GurtTractor

The Souls games, especially if it's the first playthrough and when you're low levelled, could quite reasonably be described as survival horror in places and you have a dodge roll there. So yeah of course you can mobility options while keeping a sense of tension and horror.

I've not played any Dead Space games so I can't comment on them, but yeah if the level design is based around more restricted movement you would probably have to redesign levels etc to accomodate it. In general though I do find it hard to get along with games where the character is even less nimble and responsive than I am in real life.

nick_md

Paul the sparky wrote:

A button to dodge out of danger impacts the threat of being in danger to me. If you don't think so it's ok

You can't think of any ways such a button could be balanced?

nick_md

The souls games dodge was one of the things I was alluding to.

regmcfly

Alan Wake 2 had a dodge button and I got jumped several times that I forgot to use it

regmcfly

Fwiw the dodge mechanic in Dead Space is a null argument. Dude is in a fucking mechanic suit for space, ain't no dodging. A nice way to keep it stompy.

Paul the sparky

The Souls games are not survival horror, hadaway and shite

nick_md

Yeah but they do have a Dodge that's balanced for the purpose of the game it's in, is the point.

Paul the sparky

Aye, and that game isn't a survival horror game, so I'm not sure why it's even being brought up.

Dead Space is a survival horror, and it's set on a space ship to enforce a claustrophobic, tense atmosphere which is amplified by enemies popping out of an air vent in close proximity where you don't have the option of rolling away.

I'm not saying they couldn't implement it, I'm saying implementing it changes the game and the way it plays, and takes it in another direction to what the designers wanted to go in.

How is this conversation still going? It seems like a simple point to make, and I feel like I've made it and explained it well enough?

acemuzzy

Cos moot

Moot_Geeza

Cos I mentioned Dead Space at the start of what I hoped would be a wider discussion about survival horror and Sparky's lockjawed it?

Moot_Geeza

Also Dead Space 3 has a roll dodge and the character's in a massive space suit with big helmet on in that too.

*slowly ambles away*

nick_md

Paul the sparky wrote:

They're staples of the genre, not being able to smoothly glide around is what increases the panic when something pops out at you

This reads like a comment on the movement style in survival horror in general.

Paul the sparky wrote:

The vulnerability is key. If you add in movement options to make you feel less vulnerable, it's not a survival horror

So does this ^^

The point I'm making is that it's totally possible to see a version of SH games that give more movement options whilst retaining the SH-ness. DS dodge is brought up as an example of a mobility mechanic that's balanced around not being spammy and needing to be used judiciously; its an example and one that for me at least is easy to see how it could live in the SH genre.

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