LarryDavid wrote:What are we gonna do anyway? Militarily, they’d stomp on us like an ant, let’s be honest.
GooberTheHat wrote:hylian_elf wrote:Why is this a big thing? Or rather, why is it being made to be such a big thing?
The use of a chemical weapon on foreign soil of a country you are not at war with is hugely serious.
LarryDavid wrote:Because we need to have enemies in order to secure continued armed forces funding and military contracts?
hylian_elf wrote:LarryDavid wrote:Because we need to have enemies in order to secure continued armed forces funding and military contracts?
Like being able to sell more Fighter jets to the Saudi scum for example, yeah?
Thanks Goobs. Is it the chemical weapon point that is more pertinent here? Cos I’m sure our guys would also try and silence someone committing, or trying to commit, treason no? (Which is what this Sergei bloke is alleged to be doing:trying?)
Excuse the ignorance; I don’t follow much news nowadays. Stopped a few years ago when I found it all made me depressed and paranoid.
davyK wrote:If the Russian's did this it wouldn't be a good move long term. If this guy was part of a deal (e.g. prisoner swap) then it's unlikely that they can try and go for a deal on down the line. If this guy was inactive then what would be the point? Sending out a warning? Again - short sighted - it screws up future deals. Maybe he had become active again - which would have broken any deal. It could well have been a independent effort within their intelligence service and not necessarily ordered from the top. Then again the hit could have been agreed (or at least a blind eye was to be turned) and they have made a pig's arse of it.
Stopharage wrote:Assassinating on foreign soil impacts on the perceived sovereignty of the nation state.
Stopharage wrote:a total lack of respect for May's authority,
nick_md wrote:Without wanting to sound like an apologist, don't we do this all the time?Assassinating on foreign soil impacts on the perceived sovereignty of the nation state.
Stopharage wrote:It's a different argument really. Our assassinations are justified as preventing subsequent bloodshed, whereas this was the attempted revenge killing of a supposedly pardoned man. I'm in no way justifying UK conduct but they are different actions.nick_md wrote:Without wanting to sound like an apologist, don't we do this all the time?Assassinating on foreign soil impacts on the perceived sovereignty of the nation state.
Stopharage wrote:Our assassinations are justified as preventing subsequent bloodshed
nick_md wrote:Hold on... reading that back, huh? How do you make that out? I mean, I get there's a difference insomuch as we're at war with Islamists, and Russia isn't at war with it's former spies, but 'preventing subsequent bloodshed' is hardly the outcome of UK assassinations.Stopharage wrote:Our assassinations are justified as preventing subsequent bloodshed
nick_md wrote:davyK wrote:If the Russian's did this it wouldn't be a good move long term. If this guy was part of a deal (e.g. prisoner swap) then it's unlikely that they can try and go for a deal on down the line. If this guy was inactive then what would be the point? Sending out a warning? Again - short sighted - it screws up future deals. Maybe he had become active again - which would have broken any deal. It could well have been a independent effort within their intelligence service and not necessarily ordered from the top. Then again the hit could have been agreed (or at least a blind eye was to be turned) and they have made a pig's arse of it.
I'm not ruling out non-state blundering, the sheer cack-handedness of it suggests it wasn't particularly a professional job, or could suggest that, at least. I'm sure the Russian state aren't too bothered about it, but surely they'd do a better job of whacking someone?
I dunno, I can fully believe Putin is behind this, but I need to see more analysis before I rule out an angry, vindictive past associate of the victim.
GooberTheHat wrote:It is a Russian produced nerve agent. Either they did it, or someone managed to smuggle it out of one of their most secure top secret facilities and out of the country.nick_md wrote:I'm not ruling out non-state blundering, the sheer cack-handedness of it suggests it wasn't particularly a professional job, or could suggest that, at least. I'm sure the Russian state aren't too bothered about it, but surely they'd do a better job of whacking someone? I dunno, I can fully believe Putin is behind this, but I need to see more analysis before I rule out an angry, vindictive past associate of the victim.davyK wrote:If the Russian's did this it wouldn't be a good move long term. If this guy was part of a deal (e.g. prisoner swap) then it's unlikely that they can try and go for a deal on down the line. If this guy was inactive then what would be the point? Sending out a warning? Again - short sighted - it screws up future deals. Maybe he had become active again - which would have broken any deal. It could well have been a independent effort within their intelligence service and not necessarily ordered from the top. Then again the hit could have been agreed (or at least a blind eye was to be turned) and they have made a pig's arse of it.
nick_md wrote:Ack I'm probably misrepresenting myself. I have a friend from Uni who's always 'why does everyone hate Russia, it's not Russia, fake news fake news!'. I'm not that guy, but I like to temper myself with a step back and look at how history has played out, what is likely etc.
The likely in this case, imo, is that someone from Russia bumped this guy off. Whether that's Putin or someone else, I don't know, but I'm sure Putin doesn't mind him being gone. That the whole Uk media has jumped on the tub-thumping bandwagon isn't helpful, imo, and I genuinely doubt we don't do similar, albeit better executed thing, ourselves. Both should cut the shit out, UK and Russia.
I'm probably not coming across very well here
Shot with a frozen vodka bullet, murder-mystery-stylee.Brooks wrote:Uhh dashcam laser I think you'll find.
GooberTheHat wrote:I get what you're saying, but look at the attempted murder weapon. That's not something you can cook up in your kitchen. It is bioengineered it state laboratories. Russia is the only nation that produces that particular weapon. It is stored in the most secure of facilities. Either it was sanctioned at highest level, or it wasn't sanctioned at all.nick_md wrote:Ack I'm probably misrepresenting myself. I have a friend from Uni who's always 'why does everyone hate Russia, it's not Russia, fake news fake news!'. I'm not that guy, but I like to temper myself with a step back and look at how history has played out, what is likely etc. The likely in this case, imo, is that someone from Russia bumped this guy off. Whether that's Putin or someone else, I don't know, but I'm sure Putin doesn't mind him being gone. That the whole Uk media has jumped on the tub-thumping bandwagon isn't helpful, imo, and I genuinely doubt we don't do similar, albeit better executed thing, ourselves. Both should cut the shit out, UK and Russia. I'm probably not coming across very well here
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