I don't care. US healthcare provision is also appalling and amounts to its own catalogue of less sensational atrocious outcomes, for instance.

It's their business I'm afraid. This has been true for the Middle East for several decades, remains so for the Far East. It will be shit, the only choice is whether you want it all over yourself too.

And Jesus, don't forget Jesus.

Brooks wrote:

I don't care. US healthcare provision is also appalling and amounts to its own catalogue of less sensational atrocious outcomes, for instance.

It's their business I'm afraid. This has been true for the Middle East for several decades, remains so for the Far East. It will be shit, the only choice is whether you want it all over yourself too.

You don't care that China is liquidating it's own minority population? Whatever the deficiencies in the US healthcare system that no doubt results in many needless deaths in its society, it is no way comparable to the willful genocide that the Chinese state is currently guilty of. Bizzare argument.

And it becomes everyone's business if China is allowed to overthrow a democratically elected government in Taiwan via an act of aggression. What we're looking at there is the destruction of the international rules based system. It would be a free-for-all after that, with every tin pot nation around the world choosing to settle its border disputes with force.

Let's not use the folly of the West's history of mis-intervention and failed nation building in the Middle East as evidence that it shouldn't get involved in maintaining peace in the Far East. Ill-judged attempts to grow democracy in the desert shouldn't be compared to attempts to safeguard and protect it in the Western Pacific.

I don't care to do anything about it because it absolutely nothing to do with me and I have no agency in the case whatsoever. None of us do. I could get myself in a right tizzy over it, but that seems sad and exhausting.

What we're looking at there is the destruction of the international rules based system. It would be a free-for-all after that, with every tin pot nation around the world choosing to settle its border disputes with force.

Oh noes muh precious international rules based system, which no major player has basically shat on in living memory already at all.

Let's not use the folly of the West's history of mis-intervention and failed nation building in the Middle East as evidence that it shouldn't get involved in maintaining peace in the Far East.

Why the fuck not?

There has been one moderately successful military intervention from the West in my lifetime; the Balkans, and even then that can fairly be described as "a bit of a shit show".

There is absolutely nothing we could or should do militarily to prevent China from annexing Taiwan if they choose to, without cause 10s of thousands of additional deaths (at a minimum).

If the West was really interested in stopping the Chinese excesses then they could impose sanctions and trade embargoes etc, but they won't because that would damage the global economy and probably get them unelected so...

... despite hating what China is doing I'm kind of with Brooks on this. There really is fuck all we could or should do (other than what the US is already doing and offering limited military support to Taiwan).

I’m totally with Brooks. If govs ever get their shit together and give the UN or some other supra national org some actual toothy powers which are also somewhat fairly representative of smaller / poorer nations’ interests then sure fine

But rich western countries going to war with rich eastern country for fake humanitarian / obscene “democracy spreading” lying / actual status quo maintaining strategic and handy populism reasons is gross

It was the usual wade in with the bombs response that doesn't lead anywhere. Kosovo is still under permanent military supervision all these years later.

Kow wrote:

By success in the Balkans you mean that time we bombed the shit out of a country in order to tell them that bombing the shit out of a country was not acceptable?

More the fact that we managed to leave at some point and left a reasonably well functioning country behind and not an utter shit show.

NB. I did say "moderately successful".

And that is a relative assessment using Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Lybia as benchmarks.

Also, the faillure of the UN and Dutchbat in the massacre of Srebrenica.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

It happemed live on tv and the world didn't bat an eyelid and no help was sent to stop it. Karremans probably still suffers from nightmares and full blown ptsd.

Thing is, no one went to war with Germany in '39 because of The Jews, it was entirely about a complicated web of alliances dominoing coupled with very basic territorial defence against a state that was running out of time and juice to keep itself together but was very capable, within the swelling means of national branding, of making itself look well scary.
The framing of the conflict as a human rights adventure is convenient revisionism that would have surprised most at the time. Most players would've been quite content with ze Germans had they stuck to smooshing communists.

China have already done a number on the West by being the world's factory.
Without regular shipments of Chinese components I would suggest we could be fucked relatively quickly.
Its not just capitalist consumer tat either, its bloody everything. 
I'm reminded of the early stages of the pandemic when Chinese manufacture slowed/halted for a short time and the WD40 people were panicking because they didnt have the little nozzles that go on top of the can.

How many WD40 nozzle type components are we reliant on? How many are our military reliant on?
I'm gonna guess we dont have a clue but China probably does.

We will be on to a loser facing off against China before we even begin to look at cyber warfare or god forbid nuclear or chemical.

Done it before the U.S did so the U.S can't say "Oi turn the machines backs on"

edit:
Also jingoism.
"We've got the biggest willy gun."

.

Kow wrote:

NATO forces are still in Kosovo. We didn't leave.

Yeah, but...

There’s been an attack on a train in Tokyo. A bloke dressed as the Joker has stabbed, gassed, thrown acid and started a fire. 17 injured.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/knife-arson-acid-attack-tokyo-train-leaves-about-10-injured-media-2021-10-31/