The Maths Orgy Thread
  • Yossarian
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    acemuzzy wrote:
    Right, before the proof, somebody asked for a noddy explanation of all this shizzle (i, e, pi, euler's identity, complex numbers).  So, feeling brave, I'm giong to try.  Indulge me.  And ask questions...

    Cool, thanks. And yes, I will ask questions, thanks again.
    Let's start with i.  i is kinda useless by itself.  i only becomes useful if you square it.  In fact, that's how it's defined - the thing that if you square it you get -1.

    Okay, first question, WTF does that mean?
    So, what is i?  Well, doesn't really mean much till you square it.

    But, if you then start doing maths with it, fun stuff happens.

    Like, what's (2i) squared?  Well that's (2i)^2 = (2*i)^2, and you can multiply out, so = (2^2) x (i^2) = 4 * i^2, and i^2 = -1, so that's -4.  Whoop.

    But then, more fun things happen.  Like, what are the solution to x^2-2x+2=0?  (i.e. the values of x for which that formula holds true; it doesn't for x=1 say, as that's 1^2-2x1+2 = 1-2+2 = 1, not 0).

    You may remember the formula, x=(-b +/- sqrt(b^2-4ac)/2a.  Let's try it.  

     x = (-(-2) +/- sqrt((-2)^2-4x1*2))/2x1
       = (2 +/- sqrt(4 - 8 ))/2
       = (2 +/- sqrt (-4))/2

    oh wait, we just decided that sqrt(-4) = 2i.  

    So

     x = (2 +/- 2i) / 2 = (1 +/- i)

    Nice.

    Let's test it (with (1 + i)).

    x^2-2x+2 = (1+i)^2 - 2x(1+i) + 2
                  = (1^2 + 2i + i^2) - 2(1+i) + 2
                  = (1 + 2i - 1) - 2 - 2i + 2
                  = 0 as everything cancels.

    Whoopitydoop.

    More to follow....

    Okay, second question, WTF does all of that mean?
  • Babylonian maths was all geometric, algebra is a relatively recent tool. Geometric quadratic root finding is a thing to behold. I'll try find some stuff when I have time next week.
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  • acemuzzy
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    @yoss - bring a pencil to(morrow) night ;-)
  • I don't think that picture proof is in any way rigorous. I'm a bit disappointed to say the least. It doesn't cover the key difficulty which is the opposite part.
  • GooberTheHat
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    It does.
  • acemuzzy
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    Of course a diagram doesn't in and of itself constitute a formal proof, but I think you're being a bit harsh, as it does point at one.

    At angle x along the horizontal axis, the two lines represent the temperature at x and directly opposite x. So if they cross the temperatures match.

    For the theory to be false, there must be nowhere where the lines touch.

    But if t(0) doesn't equal t(180), then one line starts higher than the other, and ends lower (as the start and end temperatures swap over 180 degrees).

    But given their continuous, they MUST cross. So the theory must hold true.

    The "must cross" bit is most clear visibly I think it becomes obvious in those terms. You're right that's still not fully rigorous - there is a named theory that says they must cross though. I'll see if I can remember what it's called...
  • acemuzzy
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    I think it basically is voices proof, but in a nice diagram rather than words (and skipping the 1 & 2 bits).
  • GooberTheHat
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    Umm, guys...

    I posted that pic as a bit of a joke. I didn't actually do any 3d modeling. I thought it had been taken as a joke but now it seems like you are all taking it seriously and I am obviously some sort of rainman genius.

    Sorry for spoiling your maths party.
  • acemuzzy
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    Huh? I've been enjoying the coincidence of it looking quite like mine. Was suspicious this wasn't due to rainman skillz.

    Think voices was snagging my diagram off not yours!
  • acemuzzy
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    (Hence the "oddly close" last page.)

    Anyhows, think that question has run its course!
  • Ah, didn't mean  to be harsh. I was expecting a formal proof is all, and I guess I'm a maths fan/nerd. 

    Now, this might be me miss understanding, but I think the intermediate value theorem is different to the theory we were considering. The intermediate value theorem doesn't consider the location of the point, but we were looking at a point exactly half a rotation round from an exactly similarly temperature point. 

    Just to be clear, I'm happy to be wrong!

    Actually, reconsidering, I think I get the graph now. Ha.... Weirdly enough I drew something similar on the way to my proof.... The key is that it's comparing the plus a half line, so the point of intersection is the one point we want. 

    Still not a formal proof though so ner!
  • The proof which uses the intermediate angle theory looks elegant. Nice. 

    MAAAAAATTTTHHHHHSSSS!
  • acemuzzy
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    voices wrote:
    Ah, didn't mean  to be harsh. I was expecting a formal proof is all, and I guess I'm a maths fan/nerd. 

    Now, this might be me miss understanding, but I think the intermediate value theorem is different to the theory we were considering. The intermediate value theorem doesn't consider the location of the point, but we were looking at a point exactly half a rotation round from an exactly similarly temperature point. 

    Just to be clear, I'm happy to be wrong!

    Actually, reconsidering, I think I get the graph now. Ha.... Weirdly enough I drew something similar on the way to my proof.... The key is that it's comparing the plus a half line, so the point of intersection is the one point we want. 

    Still not a formal proof though so ner!

    Well ner back ;-)

    Yeah strictly you need to apply IVT on g(x)=t(x)-t(×+0.5). If that has a zero, anywhere, then x and half way round from x have matching temp.

    And it must as the sign at x=0 is the opposite from at x=0.5. (And the difference of two continuous functions is continuous.)

    HAPPY NOW?!?
  • Ha, pretty much my proof. Using the difference as a function. Go me.
  • acemuzzy
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    Indeed
  • Little Franklin
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    Possibly stupid /drunk question here. The real world applications of π are fairly obvious. Does e have that many?
  • Little Franklin
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    Oh my God! Are e and e the same thing!?
  • acemuzzy
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    e has loads of applications. But less mainstream.

    Differential equations, fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, electronics.

    Complex numbers: quantum mechanics etc

    Fourier transforms. Hence mpegs / jpegs.

    (Some of the above may be bullshit, but equally think there's loads more i can't immediately think of!)

    @edit - also loads of "financial" maths I think
  • E is part of the normal probability curve too. 

    In terms of real world applications, I plug it into my calculator all the time, where as I haven't used pi for ages. The bank of england posts daily instantaneous gilt and inflation rates, for example, which require the use of e.
  • acemuzzy
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    How many consecutive zeroes are there at the end of one hundred factorial (100!)?
  • cockbeard
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    Minimum 21, but likely lots more. The number will have something like 150 digits, and every time you multiply by a 5 or 10 you create one extra zero at the end. I guess at some point the last non zero will be a five, so that means every other factor after that will add a zero, so yeah lots more that 21

    No it won't I'm being silly, the number before the new zero, needn't be a five or zero so not an extra one every factor, so minimum 21 but there's a better way, surely
    "I spent years thinking Yorke was legit Downs-ish disabled and could only achieve lucidity through song" - Mr B
  • Count the factors that make 10s
  • Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
  • GooberTheHat
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    Lets get the super cool maths party started again.  I am trying to improve my rainman skills, but I am stumped yet again.

    It's basic A Level stuff I know, but please humour me, I am trying to learn this on my own.  I can't figure out how to solve this equation:

    5x^2 -10x^2 = -7 +x +x^2

    I have rearranged it to:

    -4x^2 +x +7 = 0

    What the hell do I do next.  Have I messed up already?  I'm stumped.  I know there is something I'm forgetting or missing but its beyond me at the moment.
  • I make it -6 x sqrds - x +7 = 0 ?
  • GooberTheHat
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    sorry, I'm trying to find the value of x.

    Edit.  yep. your right. I had a brain melt down. Been at it too long I think
  • Aye but I think you've rearranged wrong.
  • acemuzzy
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    There's a formula for solving quadratic equations. Typing it on a phone is something even I can't face tho.

    will give better answer from pc when home...

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