The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

AndCallMeCharlie

Private eye with a subheading of “government denies fool shortage”which caught my eye

JonB

Not sure the point of the Labour party was to fetishise work, but here we are.

Right at a time when anyone progressive should be looking to re-evaluate the role of work in society too. Oh well.

Funkstain

We’re just the wrong audience for this sort of speech. This is for all those self described “sensible” “hard working” gen xers, the last post war beneficiaries, who in their 40s and 50s make up such a huge amount of our electorate and who, as part of the eternal inter-demographic war, are now the social conservative, fiscal centrists of our age and there’s no way a large majority of them will vote for jumped up, silly youth, not real world progressive ideas. The red wall voters. The electoral core

Diluted Dante

Cunts, in short.

Yossarian

JonB wrote:

Not sure the point of the Labour party was to fetishise work, but here we are.

They probably picked the wrong name in that case.

Diluted Dante

Yossarian wrote:

JonB wrote:

Not sure the point of the Labour party was to fetishise work, but here we are.

They probably picked the wrong name in that case.

The name is about who they represented, not wanking themselves off about how fucking awesome work is, and how you should do more of it and harder.

Yossarian

It wasn’t meant entirely seriously, but come on, you’ve got to expect that a party that grew out of the trade union movement will have some attachment to the idea of the dignity of work, no?

Diluted Dante

Back then they were fighting for fewer hours worked, and better pay. It would be nice if Labour thought about doing that.

monkey

The dignity of work angle is a decent vote winner imo. Sounds good to the pull your socks up bullshit of the older generation and can theoretically be used as a lever for better pay, conditions ie dignity at work. And as Yoss says it’s rooted in the Labour tradition.

monkey

It also gets over the idea that labour (small l) is something valuable and should command a fairer settlement.

Obviously there’s huge question marks over whether Starmer is interested in pursuing any of this.

RedDave2

For those of you who dont like the idea of "value of work" as a concept, whats your ideal scenario for a functional society?

For me i think social capitalism (for want of a better term) is not perfect but makes the most sense but i can accept that i am, to an extent, indoctrinated into the concept.

Whats the socialist balance that you think would work best?

Diluted Dante

RedDave2 wrote:

For those of you who dont like the idea of "value of work" as a concept, whats your ideal scenario for a functional society? For me i think social capitalism (for want of a better term) is not perfect but makes the most sense but i can accept that i am, to an extent, indoctrinated into the concept. Whats the socialist balance that you think would work best?

Pay more for shit jobs.

Yossarian

I’m waiting for Star Trek to become real.

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

For those of you who dont like the idea of "value of work" as a concept, whats your ideal scenario for a functional society? For me i think social capitalism (for want of a better term) is not perfect but makes the most sense but i can accept that i am, to an extent, indoctrinated into the concept. Whats the socialist balance that you think would work best?

Pay more for shit jobs.

How about endorsing more of a self sufficient spirit... dont work the shit job indefinitely, create your own job either through education/qualification or by entrepreneurship?

Diluted Dante

RedDave2 wrote:

How about endorsing more of a self sufficient spirit... dont work the shit job indefinitely, create your own job either through education/qualification or by entrepreneurship?

Bootstraps is it?

Don't work the shit job indefinately is fucking lol. I'm 36 and would love someone to let me know how that is possible.

Yossarian

Our whole system is based around needing people to do those shit jobs.

Also, not everyone is suited to education, not everyone can make it as an entrepreneur. Should they just have to do shit jobs for shit pay forever, in a country where there is more than enough money to take care of everyone because of it?

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

Our whole system is based around needing people to do those shit jobs.

Also, not everyone is suited to education, not everyone can make it as an entrepreneur. Should they just have to do shit jobs for shit pay forever, in a country where there is more than enough money to take care of everyone because of it?

Ok, so that would be social capitalism then wouldnt it? Those who can do, those who cant get supported.

The shit pay issue could be levelled up with the Universal basic income whereby tax paid by more well off is redistributed to people whos jobs are needed but are never going to provide a high income (for example working at a corner shop is unlikely to give you the same wages as an accountant no matter how hard you work)

Diluted Dante wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

How about endorsing more of a self sufficient spirit... dont work the shit job indefinitely, create your own job either through education/qualification or by entrepreneurship?

Bootstraps is it?

Don't work the shit job indefinately is fucking lol. I'm 36 and would love someone to let me know how that is possible.

I appreciate thats your experience but my own is that i wasnt particualrly smart as a student, im not a particualrly amazing chef but i do belive my positive attitude to work has helped me a lot. I have had a decent standard of living which i got through perseverance in most cases. From both my own life and many around me, ive seen hard work linked with wanting to push yourself further either through work, education or just personal goals generally pays off to some degree.

Yossarian

That’s a highly selective sample, though. Presumably you don’t spend much time talking to people who worked hard but still managed to fall through the cracks.

JonB

RedDave2 wrote:

For those of you who dont like the idea of "value of work" as a concept, whats your ideal scenario for a functional society? For me i think social capitalism (for want of a better term) is not perfect but makes the most sense but i can accept that i am, to an extent, indoctrinated into the concept. Whats the socialist balance that you think would work best?

There's a need to face up to realities and trends in relation to automation, the environment, globalisation, mental health etc. Work for work's sake is damaging and unnecessary, and over time there's likely to be less of it to go round.

The focus should be firmly on green jobs, rewarding work with a social purpose, reduced hours and better conditions, alongside a green economy and progressive tax system that can accommodate all that. Even if that's not all possible right now, the aim should be at least to start shifting the narrative around work away from the usual fetishising nonsense that measures our value as individuals on the quantity of work we do, regardless of what it achieves.

mistercrayon

I wonder if even the concept of "green economy" sort of undermines the idea ( whatever it is) in the way that the terms of the conversation are in the frame of reference of the ideology of now.

Gremill

Funkstain wrote:

We’re just the wrong audience for this sort of speech. This is for all those self described “sensible” “hard working” gen xers, the last post war beneficiaries, who in their 40s and 50s make up such a huge amount of our electorate and who, as part of the eternal inter-demographic war, are now the social conservative, fiscal centrists of our age and there’s no way a large majority of them will vote for jumped up, silly youth, not real world progressive ideas. The red wall voters. The electoral core

Diluted Dante wrote:

Cunts, in short.

Excuse me, I may be a cunt but it's for entirely different reasons.

RedDave2

quote="Yossarian"]That’s a highly selective sample, though. Presumably you don’t spend much time talking to people who worked hard but still managed to fall through the cracks.[/quote]

Given the industry i work in, do you really think i havent come across loads who do work hard and still fail? Of course I have. Hell, ive failed badly on 2 occassions, nearly lost my home to a bad career decision.

Im not saying hard work alone will guarantee success. It doesnt. But i do think that pushing yourself for your own goal, whatever that is helps a huge amount. Do everything you can to give yourself that chance. And yes, i guess that does mean boot straps pulled up for some.

But ok, fine you dont like my view... but what do you think is going to work? If we created a society where people dont need money to live a decent life, we still will need the shitty jobs done. We will still have tasks that need doing. How does that work in your ideal world?

Diluted Dante

RedDave2 wrote:

I appreciate thats your experience but my own is that i wasnt particualrly smart as a student, im not a particualrly amazing chef but i do belive my positive attitude to work has helped me a lot. I have had a decent standard of living which i got through perseverance in most cases. From both my own life and many around me, ive seen hard work linked with wanting to push yourself further either through work, education or just personal goals generally pays off to some degree.

My experience is that how hard you work has precisely no correlation to how well you can advance at work.

MattyJ

If you paid people to clean the streets as much as you pay them to trade arbitrarily assigned valuable parts of a company, you best believe the pavements would be shining.

Yossarian

Find those jobs that are essential and which can’t be automated, get people to chip in a day or two per week to do them. Probably some kind of UBI for buying stuff, something like that.

I’m sure you can pick a million holes in that, I can’t say I’ve ever sat down and really tried to turn it into a fully-fledged plan, but that’s the rough idea I have in my head.

Yossarian

Also, just for the record, I don’t just mean people who’ve failed at something, I mean those that have lost everything through little to no fault of their own. Plenty such people exist.

RedDave2

Yossarian wrote:

Find those jobs that are essential and which can’t be automated, get people to chip in a day or two per week to do them. Probably some kind of UBI for buying stuff, something like that.

I’m sure you can pick a million holes in that, I can’t say I’ve ever sat down and really tried to turn it into a fully-fledged plan, but that’s the rough idea I have in my head.

Im not looking to pick holes or argue, im genuinely just curious as to how other people feel the world would work better. I have my own view but like everyone its shaped by my experiences.even uf i dont agree or like your idea, it certainly doesnt mean it wouldnt work or be better.

Yossarian wrote:

Also, just for the record, I don’t just mean people who’ve failed at something, I mean those that have lost everything through little to no fault of their own. Plenty such people exist.

Yeah, i do get that. I do agree that some people have been dealt a hand so shitty that its everyone elses obligation to help them out. I suppose i always find the tricky bit is that it kinda infantises people. Its not the best comparison but its like doing everything for your kid... you think they cant do things but actually even from a young age they are more capable than you think and the trick is to give them the opportunity to grow. If you tell someone they cant grow, they wont.

Diluted Dante wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

I appreciate thats your experience but my own is that i wasnt particualrly smart as a student, im not a particualrly amazing chef but i do belive my positive attitude to work has helped me a lot. I have had a decent standard of living which i got through perseverance in most cases. From both my own life and many around me, ive seen hard work linked with wanting to push yourself further either through work, education or just personal goals generally pays off to some degree.

My experience is that how hard you work has precisely no correlation to how well you can advance at work.

Listen, I accept that we all have vastly different lives and opportunities You have your experience and i have mine. Im genuinely sorry you feel that way about things but im not arrogant enough to say your wrong. I havent walked in your shoes.

Funkstain

Maybe respond to Jon’s points, or even Matty’s? But first Jon’s. It looked like a viable set of strategies for the future beyond “work harder scum”

As for you seeing the value in that work. It may be worth considering that even the work ethos (in a modern manner), the ability to learn from failure, the sheer ability to work hard and push yourself and see beyond a dulled future, are all products of luck? Your genes, your upbringing, your education, your opportunities, the people you’ve met - all chance. They shape you. Harden your attitudes. But Why should someone born lazy have to suffer because someone born hardworking believes they are better?

It’s not about saying “fuck that the ant looking after the grasshopper all the time, who’d want to be an ant” it’s about recognising that people are different and that for too many the current system doesn’t work.

I could go on: this idea that “social capitalism” even exists is an affront to the daily reality of millions of people almost literally slaving away for our capitalist comforts, and billions of others with no opportunities like ours to even dream of

Again, luck. Born in the right place in the right time with the right family and you haven’t been run over. Spare a thought for those less fortunate instead of concentrating on their laces

Funkstain

Try to imagine an existence where you had the material freedom to discover what you truly loved doing with your life? Maybe you’d still have become a chef

Escape

If zero-hours cannot be, let the harder working one be me.

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