The British Politics Thread
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Every post you make appears to rest on that presumption, with no interest in investigating how it might be achieved.
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Diluted Dante wrote:Every post you make appears to rest on that presumption, with no interest in investigating how it might be achieved.
To be fair, i think all his posts are asking how it might be achieved.
SFV - reddave360 -
I literally asked in my first post and the silence is now deafening.
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Well there is an incredibly simple one that you haven't acknowledged, which is that it doesn't come in on day 1.
Assuming an election in 2024, which Labour are, the minimum wage for 21 and over will be £10.50. So in 2025, Labour can change that to the same amount for everyone. Whether that's a to match inflation change or higher, the point is pay is now the same for everyone.
Then you raise it each year to reach £15 in 2030. -
Firstly I'm not not acknowledging that, I'm getting tired of asking what THE plan is not what a plan might be maybe.
Is that the plan or what you are suggesting?
I had already assumed it wouldn't be a day 1 increase to £15 anyway. Doesn't alleviate my doubts, it would still be extremely hard to handle year on year.
I really dont think it is an unreasonable response to ask to see the working. -
I’m that’s what I said straight away to liv
Phased intro. Support for small businesses. Rules / exceptions based on profitability. More coops and partnerships rather than plcs, raise taxes on Rich, land, inheritance, cgt etc to pay for support and build up industries which can train and hire skilled people working towards greener infrastructure, energy, supply chain, agriculture etc etc
All of this can be scopes out properly, costed, analysed, with best / worst case business cases, consultations with experts and stakeholders and academics and business owners to build consensus
I mean you’re painting this as if it’s an intractable problem “ there’s simply no way we can afford to pay proles a decent wage without total societal collapse” fuck me sound like an anti abolitionist “no sorry we need slaves necessary evil to keep things ticking think how much you’ll have to pay for cotton or sugar” -
I recognise you think this dweeb is some kind of halfwit, and I agree with you. It was deliberately timed to cause max damage. Fuck him.
But to think that the entire Labour apparatus is incapable of actually putting some kind of thought and research into an age old policy makes me think you believe our current standard of government is the best we can hope for -
The whole point of a debate on this would be to surface this kind of research and data and thinking and ideas. Otherwise it’s a pointless talking shop like in here
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Thats what I'm suggesting liv. Funks post sums up what I'm getting from you, and my feeling on the matter.
I think you dont understand Labour conference motions. They don't put forward detailed plans. They are essentially statements of aspiration, and the policy unit would look at the how. -
Don’t mind me I just use this place as a sort of therapy, anger management sort of thing
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I know I'm a bit of a single issue person sometimes, but surely the root of all this is high rents. While the rest of our living costs are largely based upon some exchange of labour, the cost of getting a roof over your head is a fucking expensive outlier. ffs it's arguably the one of the main obstacles to us being able to pause our economy during a pandemic, in addition to being a driving force behind people feeling trapped working too many hours in depressing roles. If ever there was a 'job' that should be poorly paid it's that of a landlord. The fact these house touts virtually set their own salary (which largely bears no correlation to the amount of work they are actually doing) and the rest of us- both individuals and businesses- have to tighten our belts to accommodate their greed is the primary reason why we're suddenly talking about the need for a 15 pound living wage which, if we ever adopted, would inevitably end up getting cancelled out over time by further rent rises as the parasites realised there was more money to siphon.
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Very good point. Whenever staff approach me about an out of schedule pay rise, its never cost of living thats given as a reason, its a rise in rent. Fair to say a reduction in your rent of 20 percent would be as good as that minimum wage?SFV - reddave360
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Yep hence land tax and cgt reforms and wealth tax which would discourage house price speculation and investment as well as control landlords
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RedDave2 wrote:Very good point. Whenever staff approach me about an out of schedule pay rise, its never cost of living thats given as a reason, its a rise in rent. Fair to say a reduction in your rent of 20 percent would be as good as that minimum wage?
Aye. Building a fucktonne of social housing and capping private rents would be a great start. -
How about the same amount of houses with all the Green New Deal money going into insulating them to increase their value?
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It has to be a mixture of short term medium term and long term policies and changes all working harmoniously towards stated missions. Google are an awful company but their system of OKRs is a good one
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This country’s going to be loving our baking hot brick houses in 20 years when we’ve got the climate of Spain.
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House “values” (prices?) are already unfairly out of whack. It’s the land that’s worth the money not the house. Tax it (fairly and not extravagantly!) and watch prices normalise in mere years
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£10 min wage is completely outdated now. Especially as the Tories of all people are beating it. But £15 has been completely plucked out of the air. And you can’t just make shit up and hope for the best. Filling in the blanks with something something societal change. Well, you can as the Tories prove. But you shouldn’t.
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It's a bargaining position surely? If you start at £15, that can be argued down to a position that's still benificial to the lowest paid.
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If that’s the case, then don’t lose it when the other side say no thanks. If it’s a negotiation, negotiate. Edit - not you, them Labour lot that were arguing for it.Diluted Dante wrote:It's a bargaining position surely? If you start at £15, that can be argued down to a position that's still benificial to the lowest paid.
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monkey wrote:£10 min wage is completely outdated now. Especially as the Tories of all people are beating it. But £15 has been completely plucked out of the air. And you can’t just make shit up and hope for the best. Filling in the blanks with something something societal change. Well, you can as the Tories prove. But you shouldn’t.
I think this is what has irked me about the lack of working out with it. It just seems like a made up number that sounds good.
No thought on impact or what it will be worth in 2030 or how it is prevented being hoovered up as in Noxy's example.
A push for minimum wage matching the independently and annually calculated living wage (not the Tory brand living wage) sounds much better. Even if that was Living Wage +5% or +10% if its not considered enough.
That at least shows to me how it is going to be calculated down the line.
£15 could equally kill small business in 2024 and not be enough in 2028 because its not related to anything.
I'm asking for working of some sort from the source to tell me I'm wrong.
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It wasn't his proposal though, it was a Unite proposal. If he felt he couldn't in good concience argue against it, his position becomes untenable surely?
It's also worth noting that as well as the minimum wage, he was also instructed to argue against the sick pay proposals, so it's not just about this £15 thing specifically. -
@Funk
I can accept that if adopted and moved forward to full on policy there may (emphasis on may, I'd have to see them) have been solutions that stopped it being a disaster but my view is that they would have needed to be quite extensive and kind of there to facilitate a bad policy that could have just been replaced with a better policy that achieves the same result. I'm wary of things that can be loopholed as well. For example giving grants to small business to cover the cost, there is always a loophole that gets exploited.
I stand by the fact though that whoever is putting something forward should have some form of thought in how it works whether that's this bozo or Unite or whoever else especially when they are really quite specific as this was. -
Wasnt there justifiable outrage when leave won and then said it was up to the remain voting government to sort out?SFV - reddave360
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RedDave2 wrote:Wasnt there justifiable outrage when leave won and then said it was up to the remain voting government to sort out?
Yeah, but again, conference motions aren't binding.
We don't know what the specific intent was of the £15 figure as there doesn't seem to be anything published, but I find it weird that anyone would berate a union for pushing for higher wages because they don't have a macro economic plan for the country.
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