The British Politics Thread - The Bear and Badger

Escape

Or just skip all that and read this: https://brokenbottleboy.substack.com/p/starmer-starmer-starmer-chameleon

JonB

Starmer's record as leader so far has shown that he can't be trusted and that he cares more about making sure people like me don't have a political voice than anything else.

Escape

Here he is shook by a young person asking about his GND intentions:

https://twitter.com/GNDRising/status/1442088448739790857

monkey

Can’t believe Starmer wouldn’t hand out £85 billion to some kid on the street.

LivDiv

Changing the subject completely.

How the fuck is Cressida Dick still in a job?

Diluted Dante

She knows where the bodies are buried.

poprock

I’m surprised to see anyone in here against work experience for school kids and also against free university education.

Work experience was compulsory at my school (twice, at two different ages) and I cracked on with arranging more for myself in the summer holidays. That last part I was able to do because of privilege - I didn’t need an income through the summer - but the two compulsory sessions were for every pupil.

I’m old enough to have had fees for university - but I qualified for a grant. Remember those? Only a grant to pay my fees though, nothing to live on.

Beyond that, when it comes to doing internships - those I believe should be paid roles. By that age you’re a valuable contributor to the employer. I didn’t get paid for mine though, I worked five months in the US for free. Professionally, the best thing I ever did. It literally kickstarted my career.

Armitage_Shankburn

JonB wrote:

Starmer's record as leader so far has shown that he can't be trusted and that he cares more about making sure people like me don't have a political voice than anything else.

It's comical to talk about policies in govt or owt for Starmer, when in Wes streeting:s reputed words theirs is a two term project. IE Starmer's job is internal warfare, he gets ousted having done that job but lost a general, and labour sets up the next guy (centrist, good hair, clean hands) for a power attempt in 2028. In the meantime, suicide, illness, emigration or defeat will do for the sort of people we're talking about.

Funkstain

It’s that. The power struggle continues and the voting changes were to prevent a coup from the right not the left

Funkstain

Yoss, your point is clear and obvious. But what do you say to those who argue that

A) Blair’s improvements were a lot due to having lots of money to spend in the never ending (until 2007) boom times?

B ) if A) is accepted even partially, why have faith that starmer will have more than marginal impact on most vulnerable (no money, see stagflation), and even if he can, that it’s five years maybe ten at best of marginal gain followed by another populist Tory fuckhole?

I suppose the problem with saying “it has to get worse before it gets better” is that’s it is easy for people like me to say isn’t it

monkey

Streeting said the opposite.

“We have now lost four general elections in a row. The Labour Party has never lost a fifth. We are not going to lose a fifth. We are going to make sure we win the next general election under Keir Starmer,” Streeting said.

“Give your full throated support to Keir Starmer because he is the person who is going to lead Labour back to power, rid us of this past, free us of our shackles, and make sure we have a Labour government delivering for this country again.

He added: “Don’t let anyone tell you this is a two-term project. That the mountain is too high, the challenge so big that we can’t win in one go.

“We have to win at the next election. Because there are millions of children living in poverty who can’t wait two terms for a Labour government.”

link

Not that the words of Wes Streeting matter all that much. And Jon is right.

They need the biggest electoral swing since 1945 just to get a majority of one. A Labour government with a decent majority is impossible. Best chance is hung parliament that will force another election, or an electoral coalition. There's 50 odd seats the Tories hold that have progressive majorities split across different parties. But I don't think the parties are up to co-ordinating that without making a mess of it.

davyK

If work experience is to be made compulsory then it would need to be planned better so as to give kids a taster of a range of jobs from the vocations, trades and professions. I would also propose to include money management, light project planning and meeting management as subjects taught in a supporting role. If this was implemented then work experience would be an enriching lesson in any child's education; indeed I suspect it would be even better if it was distributed throughout a school year in 1 or 2 day blocks instead of spending a week in an office making coffee or browsing the internet.

We put some effort into showing our w.e. kids a range of jobs across IT but it's an admin overhead (not least including child safety). However I believe it worthwhile.

Yossarian

Funkstain wrote:

Yoss, your point is clear and obvious. But what do you say to those who argue that

A) Blair’s improvements were a lot due to having lots of money to spend in the never ending (until 2007) boom times?

B ) if A) is accepted even partially, why have faith that starmer will have more than marginal impact on most vulnerable (no money, see stagflation), and even if he can, that it’s five years maybe ten at best of marginal gain followed by another populist Tory fuckhole?

I suppose the problem with saying “it has to get worse before it gets better” is that’s it is easy for people like me to say isn’t it

I don’t accept that there’s no money available, we all know that there are insane levels of wealth in this country, and Labour have said they’re going to look at the tax system.

And even if it is five years of Starmer followed by five of another populist Tory fuckhole, that’s still better than ten years of populist Tory fuckholes. Marginal gain vs things actively getting worse for a few years doesn’t sound like much of a choice to me.

monkey

Escape wrote:

As an underperforming pupil I'd have been roadworking or labouring. Interesting. (I'd have said I was labouring with my dad who'd have covered for me, but that's not the point.) When I left school at 14 with MH problems they made it more stressful to stay out, and I did think about going back and just dossing around again, but their combative treatment rubbed me up the wrong way and I dug in. Starmer's playing to the National Service crowd with a gateway policy even the Tories lack, so of course it triggers the anti-authoritarian in me. It's no way to treat kids — as futurework commodities.

You find your own job. And kids aren't sent out to building sites or down pit. I don't know what percentage of kids at my school went on to further education at 16 but, as one of the ones who did, I was in the minority. So yes, kids are given a little taste of what is waiting for them out there in 12 months time. Or a few years time.
I really don't see the problem in teaching kids how mortgages work either. Or loans. Or loan sharks. If Corbyn had suggested it, you'd think it was good to produce a more savvy citizenship that had some of the consequences of personal finance explained to them.

Yossarian

Incidentally, I googled this, turns out that work experience was compulsory for everyone before 2012, this particular policy is reversing a change from just 8 years ago. It also means that all of us in the UK did mandatory work experience. I don’t think that it was remotely controversial when I was at school, I don’t remember any celebrations when it was no longer compulsory. Feels like this is being made out to be a bigger deal than it is.

monkey

Yossarian wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Yoss, your point is clear and obvious. But what do you say to those who argue that A) Blair’s improvements were a lot due to having lots of money to spend in the never ending (until 2007) boom times? B ) if A) is accepted even partially, why have faith that starmer will have more than marginal impact on most vulnerable (no money, see stagflation), and even if he can, that it’s five years maybe ten at best of marginal gain followed by another populist Tory fuckhole? I suppose the problem with saying “it has to get worse before it gets better” is that’s it is easy for people like me to say isn’t it

I don’t accept that there’s no money available, we all know that there are insane levels of wealth in this country, and Labour have said they’re going to look at the tax system. And even if it is five years of Starmer followed by five of another populist Tory fuckhole, that’s still better than ten years of populist Tory fuckholes. Marginal gain vs things actively getting worse for a few years doesn’t sound like much of a choice to me.

Counter-point is the planet isn't going to give us time fucking around with marginal gains. And if Labour isn't the vehicle for changing that, then they're blocking one that could be. Also marginal gains mean less when the next Tory government get in and perform sweeping, deep, non-marginal butchery.

I get that it's realism driving this, and I'm in the same boat. But it's pretty hopeless. There doesn't seem to be many options that don't end in more Tories for ever and ever.

Yossarian

£28bn per year to deal with climate change may just give us a bit more time for marginal gains to work.

Armitage_Shankburn

monkey wrote:

Streeting said the opposite.

“We have now lost four general elections in a row. The Labour Party has never lost a fifth. We are not going to lose a fifth. We are going to make sure we win the next general election under Keir Starmer,” Streeting said.

“Give your full throated support to Keir Starmer because he is the person who is going to lead Labour back to power, rid us of this past, free us of our shackles, and make sure we have a Labour government delivering for this country again.

He added: “Don’t let anyone tell you this is a two-term project. That the mountain is too high, the challenge so big that we can’t win in one go.

“We have to win at the next election. Because there are millions of children living in poverty who can’t wait two terms for a Labour government.”

link

Not that the words of Wes Streeting matter all that much. And Jon is right.

They need the biggest electoral swing since 1945 just to get a majority of one. A Labour government with a decent majority is impossible. Best chance is hung parliament that will force another election, or an electoral coalition. There's 50 odd seats the Tories hold that have progressive majorities split across different parties. But I don't think the parties are up to co-ordinating that without making a mess of it.

Yeah I was reading between the lines. When a career politician says to you "don't let anyone tell you X", it means he's worried about X and it doesn't mean X = not true.

But when such a politician is telling HIS OWN PARTY ACTIVISTS "don't let anyone tell you X" it means "shut the fuck up about X, X must be buried from the general public". In that case in my book the assertion "X is not true" is highly suspect.

Armitage_Shankburn

(for the avoidance of doubt, monkey link makes clear this was a message to a fringe event for "moderate" party members)

monkey

Ah fair enough.

Kow

Why don't you do what they've done in Ireland and have a coalition between the two main parties? That way you can make sure that everyone is equally unhappy.

equinox_code

Starmer has nothing but sticking plasters to treat serious wounds. If he were a candidate in the turkey elections he’d be campaigning for Christmas to be held no later than boxing day.

JonB

monkey wrote:

They need the biggest electoral swing since 1945 just to get a majority of one. A Labour government with a decent majority is impossible. Best chance is hung parliament that will force another election, or an electoral coalition. There's 50 odd seats the Tories hold that have progressive majorities split across different parties. But I don't think the parties are up to co-ordinating that without making a mess of it.

And that's before any boundary changes and voter ID shit that the Tories might bring in before the next election. It's going to take a strong coalition to oust them. So maybe if you're the main opposition, don't alienate a chunk of your base support.

JonB

The doubly annoying thing is that Starmer stood as the unity candidate, presumably knowing that that's what would win the leadership vote, because it's what most people wanted and believed offered the best chance of a strong recovery.

And then proceeded to fuck it all over (I'm guessing pre-meditated) to satisfy the noisiest, nastiest arseholes in the party. He effectively had the actual answer in his hand, but decided to use it trick to people rather than do what needed to be done. What an absolute cunt.

Diluted Dante

The Green Party has just elected a new leadership team of Carla Denyer and Adrian Ramsay.

EvilRedEye

I don't dislike the idea of compulsory work experience for school age kids and in theory you could wrangle it to try to try to counter inequality in higher education and employment - you know, maybe a working class kid now has the confidence to do a degree relating to a more aspirational middle-class kind of career or whatever.

I think when you randomly come out with it as a headline policy announcement it kinda comes across as a bit national servicey? I just got populist Daily Mail type vibes off it tbh.

JonB

If it's what we had at school, it would barely be worth mentioning.

LivDiv

I found it useful when I did it.
My secondary education was peak Blair at "The best state school in the region".
Where by best they meant Good OFSTED and highest state on league tables.

The reality was league tables were all that really mattered and we spent our time nagged about OFSTED and UCAS constantly.
The focus was getting B grade students to As and A grades to A*. C graders weren't really pushed and anyone falling below that were left to go feral.

It was informative to go into an adult work environment and witness people who could breath in and out totally on their own despite never filling out a UCAS form. Something deemed unacceptable by my school.

davyK

A better alternative is offering those not going onto higher education a apprenticeship. While that is traditional in trades I don't see why it shouldn't apply to other jobs and it can offer an alternative to getting a degree. Good employers can formally educate if they really wanted to.

There's an obsession with getting a degree. To be perfectly frank I didn't come out of university a better programmer then I was when I went in. I had been writing code since I was 14 in school. But goodness me I was better after a year working with the good senior developer who mentored me.

The degree gave me a very solid knowledge of how computers work at a fundamental level (right down to the micro code which implements assembler instruction sets) which I benefit from but that could also be learned on the job.

mistercrayon

I did work experience at the local Comet lifting fridges. It was shit.

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