Racist - The Bear and Badger

poprock

All fair points. I was thinking in terms of general cultural dominance. Like Eminem being laughed at as a white rapper.

cockbeard

Funkstain

great ending

dynamiteReady

poprock wrote:

All fair points. I was thinking in terms of general cultural dominance. Like Eminem being laughed at as a white rapper.

It's actually hard to know how to answer that.

Once Eminem actually did his thing, people generally moved aside. And even before his deal, he was placing high in the likes of the Rap Olympics. Around that time, you also had Cage, Sage Francis, Slug, Eyedeas...

Your post prompted me to find this, but I think it's too glib for the subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/oct/08/vanilla-ice-eminem-macklemore-understanding-white-rappers-burden

The subjectivity of music also makes it harder to argue with what you say, directly.

Like Skunk Anansie, for example. Doubt it would have been easy for her to have started out as a hard rock artist. Or Freddie Mercury, of course. But once they stuck with it, people saw the artist first, and the cultural statement much later.

In sport however, while aesthetics are important, they mean much less than winning.

The music thing could be a fun discussion, But I really don't have the knowledge for it.
There are multiple centuries of history to it for what little I know.

Some random Lenny Henry documentary recently taught me that Beethoven wrote a concerto for a black violinist, but scratched it when the dude dissed some chick who was sweating him, and she happened to be a longtime friend of Beethoven.

Could have completely changed the face of musical history, that event.

RedDave2

Yoss wrote:

Arguably, racism was invented in order to create or entrench a power dynamic in the first place. I don’t think humans are naturally racist, but clearly there’s no way for us to know that one way or the other.

I would definitely agree that racism is the crux behind why someone can justify them and theirs being better than others, to the point they can treat them as, or worse, than cattle.

But I'm not sure some humans aren't naturally racist... or at least reluctant to what is different or outside. As kids, we tend to group with like minded kids and those who dont fit into the norms can feel ostracised. And then it can turn to bullying from one stronger group against the other. And racism/ bigotry tends to pop up anywhere and everywhere. I've always felt the reason why racist tend to focus on visual differences more than anything is because it is so easy to spot. Its not so easy to tell someones religion, political leanings or nationality from a quick look. But someones skin or distinct facial traits? Thats easy. I also wonder is this way racists hate to concept of mixed race children. It makes it harder to tell who is "one of them" just by looking.

I'd like to think its not inherent in us but I fear its a hangover from our tribal days - identify and fear the outsider.

Funkstain

It's the banality of these people which is so upsetting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-57382945

They're so fucking dense it's just hopeless, I mean what does this even mean:

some wanker in article wrote:

Andrew, who is based in Lincoln, tells Radio 1 Newsbeat he booed to show his objection to what he sees as "an identity politics agenda that focuses on black people and skin colour, when as far as I am concerned we are all England fans regardless of colour".
"Some seem to genuinely believe booing is an act of racism - I reject that," he adds.

Funkstain

what the actual fuck is "an identity politics agenda" with regards to "we are all England fans regardless of colours" and how do either cause relate to the kneeling in support of BLM I mean Jesse H CHRIST

Funkstain

Why do they try so hard to rationalise their racism with such transparent dumbfuckery? How is booing footballers taking a knee NOT making a statement which is racist, in that or any context? WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU BOOING god damn it fuck England

cockbeard

Maybe an identity politics agenda is folk feeling like they are being told what to think and frustrated feeling like their voice isn't being heard

Oh no wait that's what the booing does

GooberTheHat

It's just dumb knee jerk reaction to something different that they don't understand and that they somehow think is attacking or threatening them.

Funkstain

cockbeard wrote:

Maybe an identity politics agenda is folk feeling like they are being told what to think and frustrated feeling like their voice isn't being heard Oh no wait that's what the booing does

Yeah I mean as a straight white football man fan I am the underdog in this so maybe

acemuzzy

"Not seeing colour" used to be the goal for aspiring non-racists. But it's become increasingly clear that - while that is some kind of ideal end goal - it's in no way the stepping stone we need to go in that direction. And it's kinda unrealistic, and basically now just a shield along the lines of "but I have a black friend".

So uh yes, I can bullshit too, basically. Claiming they want a level playing field while shooting down attempts to get there is an untenable position.

davyK

Bullying requires the bullyer to be in a greater position of power with respect to the bullied. So it's safe to say it applies to racism to an extent. Whether it always does when it comes to racism or not would require some more thought on my part.

Not seeing colour is the end game and we have a long way to go.

When it comes to taking the knee. Do it if you want to. But you shouldn't be obliged to. A team dynamic makes that more complicated though. But if the team spirit is good it should be OK. I'd expect all members of a team to be united in anything.

b0r1s

I’m not sure not seeing colour is the end game. It’s actually just accepting that people look and think differently to you and to not be scared of that, but to actually embrace it.

acemuzzy

Yeah not gonna argue with that. I guess on some contexts maybe though, eg job interviews etc.

cockbeard

b0r1s wrote:

I’m not sure not seeing colour is the end game. It’s actually just accepting that people look and think differently to you and to not be scared of that, but to actually embrace it.

I've flipped and flopped on that loads over the years. Currently I'm in agreement with you. "I don't see colour" seems more of a cop out than anything else, recognising other people's lived experiences and finding points of empathy is surely a good thing

LivDiv

The bit in that article where they say they would rather leave politics in Westminster sums it up.
Total privilege. They don't want to be inconvenienced in any way, not even for a minute at the start of a football match, they can't even comprehend the idea that non-white people are inconvenienced and worse on the regular.

Its full on I'm alright Jack stuff.

Funkstain

Right? but it gets worse when you think about it, because it's not an actual inconvenience. It's 10 seconds of kneeling before kick off. Booing it is more effort than just sitting there fuming in your racist stink. Booing it makes you actively participate in a group negative reaction to people making a symbolic gesture for racial equality. Why goose-step around how you really feel, football fan men?

dynamiteReady

b0r1s wrote:

I’m not sure not seeing colour is the end game. It’s actually just accepting that people look and think differently to you and to not be scared of that, but to actually embrace it.

I think an active attempt to judge people on an individual basis is the best start, frankly.

I see where you're coming from, but making unfair assumptions based on groups, is how we got here in the first place.

A blanket prescription is not the end goal here.
Because you're right we all have our affiliations. But those shared institutions and amenities that we rely on should be blind to colour, class and sex.

Brooks

People who resent Politics Getting Into Everything are never to be trusted ever, that's my blanket prescription. No one gets off being made to think, tough shit. The big fucking brain is your major evolutional perk, you don't get to abdicate it really.

Yossarian

Andrew Lilico with the hottest of takes:

If the England players were doing Nazi salutes before each match, would it all suddenly become fine, & all criticism of it illegitimate, because Gareth Southgate had "explained very clearly" why they were doing it?

https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1401823921939288070

Paul the sparky

Wow

yourfavouriteuncle

What the?

g.man

What an absolute twat.

Brooks

Twitter may literally be built on a range of ziggurats of false equivalence.

yourfavouriteuncle

Boris also refusing to condemn the fuckers booing. These fine people deserve their chance at free speech and bitterness and to support our brave boys however they choose, just like those good ol patriots who travel to nice cities all over Europe to cause mayhem for a night and throw some plastic chairs around the main tourist square because they can’t find a Wetherspoons.

b0r1s

dynamiteReady wrote:

b0r1s wrote:

I’m not sure not seeing colour is the end game. It’s actually just accepting that people look and think differently to you and to not be scared of that, but to actually embrace it.

I think an active attempt to judge people on an individual basis is the best start, frankly. I see where you're coming from, but making unfair assumptions based on groups, is how we got here in the first place. A blanket prescription is not the end goal here. Because you're right we all have our affiliations. But those shared institutions and amenities that we rely on should be blind to colour, class and sex.

I don't think that's what I was saying. I'm saying colour does exist and no point trying to pretend it doesn't. Of course you take people individually, but it doesn't have to start on a negative, which is how a lot of white people seem to see people of colour, then claim "we're all the same". I have a diverse family with mix of black, white and Indian, we don't all think we are the same, but we do treat each other as one family.

b0r1s

yourfavouriteuncle wrote:

Boris also refusing to condemn the fuckers booing.

I would have but I got shot down last time I talked about racist football fans ;-)

DrewMerson

Yossarian

Big fan of colourblind casting, particularly here in the U.K. where it seems like about three quarters of our TV shows and films are based on books from the 18th and 19th century.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories