dynamiteReady wrote:In regards to what, exactly? Take differential equations for example... In engineering, the use of differential equations have been proven to be less effective than other mathematical tools in certain domains where the application of calculus was once de-rigor... But what does that mean here, beyond snoot? And which subject do you think I'm talking about?It's just a question. Do you have an opinion as to whether they are reliable.That relevant? If it is, contextualise it, and I'll humour you...
JRPC wrote:@Face
Yeah, I did notice the Buzzfeed link. Read a bit of it too. For shame!
Although I appreciate the obvious effort there, I just can't deal a wall of text covering multiple subjects with a half dozen links to further walls of texts.
Pick a point, whatever you like, and I'll happily address it.
So that’s where we begin. Where we go, I think, is more important: These hypotheses about biological racial difference are now, and have always been, used to advance clear political agendas — in Murray’s case, an end to programs meant to redress racial inequality, and in Harris’s case, a counterstrike against identitarian concerns he sees as a threat to his own career. Yes, identity politics are at play in this conversation, but that includes, as it always has, white identity politics.
To Harris, and you’ll hear this explicitly, identity politics is something others do. To me, it’s something we all do, and that he and many others refuse to admit they’re doing. This is one of the advantages of being the majority group: Your concerns get coded as concerns; it’s everyone else who is playing identity politics.
dynamiteReady wrote:@Vela - Of course I believe those ideas are extremely useful, and also very much appreciate the fact the experts that champion those ideas are the very first to acknowledge and explain the complexity of those branches of science, and their inherent limitations.
Facewon wrote:Its not covering multiple topics. I'll grant threads and quotes within quotes are tricky, but I think it's clear enough I'm laying out the background and some history of IQ (with so many bits you could just quote to defend IQ I don't know why you haven't) and then stating that even conceding IQ is a useful measure, you still don't end up where Murray does. While I think it's a light joke on your part, it'd be worth your while (just for gurt) speaking to that article from buzzfeed. Because, obviously, it's actually an open letter from a bunch of academics and to me it does a solid job of making Harris's claims of things being mainstream or uncontroversial a little tenuous. Race is murkier a term than he gives it credit for.@Face Yeah, I did notice the Buzzfeed link. Read a bit of it too. For shame! Although I appreciate the obvious effort there, I just can't deal a wall of text covering multiple subjects with a half dozen links to further walls of texts. Pick a point, whatever you like, and I'll happily address it.
Vela wrote:do you understand either of them?@Vela - Of course I believe those ideas are extremely useful, and also very much appreciate the fact the experts that champion those ideas are the very first to acknowledge and explain the complexity of those branches of science, and their inherent limitations.
hunk wrote:Ezra Klein's preface to the podcast.So that’s where we begin. Where we go, I think, is more important: These hypotheses about biological racial difference are now, and have always been, used to advance clear political agendas — in Murray’s case, an end to programs meant to redress racial inequality, and in Harris’s case, a counterstrike against identitarian concerns he sees as a threat to his own career. Yes, identity politics are at play in this conversation, but that includes, as it always has, white identity politics. To Harris, and you’ll hear this explicitly, identity politics is something others do. To me, it’s something we all do, and that he and many others refuse to admit they’re doing. This is one of the advantages of being the majority group: Your concerns get coded as concerns; it’s everyone else who is playing identity politics.
JRPC wrote:me about this Harris/Klein thing.
As for Klein having a good faith debate?
I guess it depends on what you mean by that. I think he was at least probably presenting his views honestly for the most part, with the possible exception of all that stuff about Sam coming from his own tribe, oh and that painful attempt to score cheap points on Sam's Olympic Jews analogy.
But he couldn't be more blatantly biased by his political concerns if he was writing a parody.
dynamiteReady wrote:Did you also work out which branch of engineering I was talking about? Because I did honour your first question...Vela wrote:do you understand either of them?@Vela - Of course I believe those ideas are extremely useful, and also very much appreciate the fact the experts that champion those ideas are the very first to acknowledge and explain the complexity of those branches of science, and their inherent limitations.
Quis gatekeepiet ipsos gatekeepes?Facewon wrote:Ffs. You can't just seperate the science and the politics. This is the heart of it. Harris doesn't get to decide what's part of the debate and what's not. You can see Klein's "political concerns" but can't see Harris's? Being staunchly anti "identity politics" isn't a political position? With its own biases? It's this inability to be self reflective about personal bias that makes Harris look silly.
That’s one of the things that just drives me nuts about Harris and guys like Harris – their blindness (their smug blindness, frankly) to how easy it is for people with the Approved Forms of identity to see “contamination” in the “identity politics” of people who don’t. It’s almost comical that Sam Harris thinks he has truly rational conversations that are not contaminated by identity politics. It’s less close to comical that he doesn’t even realize that his hostility to “identity politics” is “identity politics.”
So, yeah, that’s his bias, or one of them.
JRPC wrote:Quick question on that point about politics and science - do you agree that the ideal would be to have no political bias in data interpreation or are you saying it's actually important that this bias is present for context or something?
djchump wrote:There's never *not* bias.
Being eyes open is a first step to trying to overcome it/them.
Facewon wrote:Quick question on that point about politics and science - do you agree that the ideal would be to have no political bias in data interpreation or are you saying it's actually important that this bias is present for context or something?That saved me some time.There's never *not* bias. Being eyes open is a first step to trying to overcome it/them.
Yeah, the endless irony of alt-right dullards endlessly moaning about "snowflake SJWs", when they themselves are even thinner-skinned reactionaries fighting for their concept of social justice is, well, completely lost on them because they're dullards.Facewon wrote:http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2018/a-truly-rational-conversation-not-contaminated-by-identity-politics/ Of course Ophelia Benson has been watching. Bless her. Points articulated so much better.... Benson:....... It’s less close to comical that he doesn’t even realize that his hostility to “identity politics” is “identity politics.” So, yeah, that’s his bias, or one of them.
Vela wrote:...I meant to add do you understand those theories deeply, superficially, or moderately?
Vela wrote:As for my guess on your engineering branch, I am going to make two guesses.Spoiler:
It does.JRPC wrote:That doesn't really answer it.Facewon wrote:Quick question on that point about politics and science - do you agree that the ideal would be to have no political bias in data interpreation or are you saying it's actually important that this bias is present for context or something?That saved me some time.There's never *not* bias. Being eyes open is a first step to trying to overcome it/them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PerspectivismJRPC wrote:Do you agree that the ideal is no bias?
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