Also, the choice is currently, can I afford to go to England to do this, or do I risk imprisonment by getting the medication illegally. In the event that it doesn't kill me anyway, since I'm doing this without medical supervision.

Vela wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

The idea that it is about limiting choice ignores the view on the no side that they feel it isnt a choice to be made at all.

I'm not using the word choice in the form of the normal argument here (pro voice/pro life).  I mean choice as in the ability to decide to do something.  The no vote is simply saying "no, you cannot choose to do that".  This still leaves ample room for the "no" voters to define why they feel its important.

they have done. they see it as murder. they've been quite clear

@dante i haven't spoke to her and I don't really want to before the vote. She's the only one in the family voting no and I feel questioning it would feel like a pile on.

Oh man, c'mon Ireland. Don't be all like brexit/trump votey about this.

You dont have to be in favour of abortion to vote yes. A yes vote only needs to be in favour of it as being an option when needed.

Voting yes doesn't affect you or your life or your right to an opinion or your right to campaign or convince people. Voting no shuts down the other side for your moral and religious right. Yes is the only democratically reasonable option, which is why there should be no vote on this.

Kow wrote:

Voting yes doesn't affect you or your life or your right to an opinion or your right to campaign or convince people. Voting no shuts down the other side for your moral and religious right. Yes is the only democratically reasonable option, which is why there should be no vote on this.

Again, that only works if you already see abortion as just a medical procedure. Its very different if you see it as murder and arguing 'oh well everyone else says its fine' is not going to cut it.

The problem for me with the whole debate was that people tend to argue only from the side that they see it and in this case, the issue is vast in how it is differently perceived. So for example one of the pro choice arguments is that the embryo is just a clump of cells. But given that one of the worries on the no side is the devaluation of life, that argument cant and wont ever work. If anything, its backing up the No view that allowing Abortion as a legal option would devalue life.

I believe something therefore I need you all to comply with that.

Not really. Most countries don't vote on these things, they're allowed by default as rights that people can make use of or not as they see fit. It's included in the European rights for just that reason.

False equivalency, IMO. Post-menopausal women have lived under these rules in a way that men have and can not.

Not saying any of that, just pointing out that equating post-menopausal women to men here is a false equivalency. Just because these two groups cannot become pregnant doesn’t immediately put then in the same boat in regards to how this law may have affected them personally.

RedDave2 wrote:

Kow wrote:

Voting yes doesn't affect you or your life or your right to an opinion or your right to campaign or convince people. Voting no shuts down the other side for your moral and religious right. Yes is the only democratically reasonable option, which is why there should be no vote on this.

Again, that only works if you already see abortion as just a medical procedure. Its very different if you see it as murder and arguing 'oh well everyone else says its fine' is not going to cut it. The problem for me with the whole debate was that people tend to argue only from the side that they see it and in this case, the issue is vast in how it is differently perceived. So for example one of the pro choice arguments is that the embryo is just a clump of cells. But given that one of the worries on the no side is the devaluation of life, that argument cant and wont ever work. If anything, its backing up the No view that allowing Abortion as a legal option would devalue life.

The current law forces women to carry non viable feotuses to term. This is, by any reasonable definition cruel, and cannot be interpreted as murder in any possible way. The only way this can change is repealing the 8th amendment

Yar, whether you believe it's right or wrong, being illegal is total nonsense. And being right or wrong is only opinion so let people make their own choices for their own families. Nobody is forcing abortion on anyone.

Opus Dei

Wait what was the question

Irish Times exit poll is suggesting a landslide for yes. Fingers crossed.