God
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  • And other supernatural topics go here; It's like a thread about unicorn farts, only relevant.

    -

    This thread is a revival of the God thread from the old Edge forum which I would link to if it still existed in its 250+ page glory, and kudos must go to Pie for starting it (though I'll refrain from making any statement about who finished it).

    That does lead nicely to the point that this sort of discussion is old so many of the points raised will likely have roots into past examinations and while the existence or non existence of a possible deity is not something that can currently be concluded, the ramifications of believing one way or the other (or neither) can certainly be evidenced and discussed to useful ends. Hell, we've even talked about impossible deities, though not everyone listened.

    We are likely well educated people who understand how a forum works, and while I am not interested or able to maintain rules about how people chose to post I might point out that if you are planning to partake in the wonders of the God thread, whether a newcomer or veteran, there are some things that are useful to keep in mind:

    Someone is likely to disagree with your opinion, it's almost a given that someone will. Unashamedly, forcefully, with disrespect to your beliefs and feelings, and in acrid tones. That being said, they might also do it in as nice a way as possible ... and maybe a god exists. You get the picture. Vitriol and Ad hominem attacks are your choice, and they certainly do keep things lively, but try to couple them with substance as well, on pain of looking like you cannot actually back your claims up with evidence and rationality. No one here will be shocked if that happens, I assure you. I may even engage in some unshocking substantial vitriol of my own.

    Being clear is important. Poorly defined points, and misuse of terms lead to misunderstood claims and semantic fallacies. It is very difficult to be clear and concise at the best of times, and the failure to do so has led to the majority of disagreements in the past. Seriously, I dare say 90% or more. You are not the first person to come along as say 'All atheists am faithful because they beleev that their am no god', without any understanding that not all people who legitimately identify with the atheist label actually believe this, or 'All agnostics am just teh people who haven't made up there minds' without any understanding that there are people in the world who legitimately identify as agnostic who happen to also believe in a god. Language is a fluid and evolving tool, and just because you assume that a word means something does not mean that it does, and expecting that other people will somehow magically intuit what you mean when you use a word that can imply something else, does not mean that they will. You are not the boss of language, but you are responsible for making your point clear. If you need to clarify your position because someone doesn't understand then do, and if someone catches you out in a semantic error (especially equivocation, don't get me started on equivocation; rationalizing does not mean you are being rational) acknowledge the problem and accept that you need to qualify your statement and understanding of the matter. Define your terms, or be an obtuse, obfuscating and lazy asshat who adds nothing to the conversation and is likely ignorant of the problems with their own position – the choice is yours.

    Logic, get educated about it and be interested in how it works. The nature of the discussion means that conversations tend to revolve around theoretical models and conclusions that can be drawn from them. If you do not understand how to draw logical conclusions from a given premises then you will have a hard time talking about them meaningfully and will likely not develop the tools to distinguish the rational from the irrational. If you're thinking about making a post about how being rational is not rational then I am talking to you. Save face now. The only way we can reach a mutual understanding of things and assess claims is by applying logic to them and seeing if they hold up. People who make irrational claims appear to think irrational thoughts.

    Glean from that what you will, and see you inside :-)
  • Useful if not one sided links:

    Iron Chariots counter apologetic wiki


    Atheist Community of Austin
    - contains links to The Atheist Experience TV show, Non Prophets and Godless Bitches podcast

    Greta Christina's blog
    - links to Atheist and Anger article

    Sam Harris

    Richard Dawkins


  • Paul the sparky
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    Heathen. One of these days God is going to get off his lazy arse, fly down off his cloud and smite you good and proper.
  • I propose that the Thread Title is renamed, Gods.
    aaaaaAAH FA-SHION!
  • Paul the sparky
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    With a question mark at the end.
  • And then the word 'No'
  • Paul the sparky
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    Fuck me I thought M00nkeh or whatever he was called had posted for a second.
  • Yossarian
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    Monkey is probably most qualified to post here seeing as he was a god, but has been demoted to a normal monkey.
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    I believe in Matt Dillahunty.
    Watch the skies, traveller.
  • Bollockoff
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    I'm acquainted with a religious type who doesn't understand how on earth C.S. Lewis could draw inspiration for Narnia from Christianity.
  • My OP would have been better.
    I'm still great and you still love it.
  • Can we still access the old old forum? Even just to read. Interested to do a bit of then and now comparison.

    Anyone think they're in a very different space re god and religion and spirituality etc compared to where they were.
    I'm still great and you still love it.
  • Skerret
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    Only cached versions and only a page at a time. It's there though. A search for 'edge forum m00nkeh SomeGuy' might bear fruit.
    Skerret's posting is ok to trip balls to and read just to experience the ambience but don't expect any content.
    "I'm jealous of sucking major dick!"~ Kernowgaz
  • Interesting things that don't make the news no 549:

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/05/norway-shows-the-way-by-separating-church-and-state

    Norway start to split church and state. It's only a first step, and they have a way to go, but good on them for telling the transvestite paedophiles priests where to go.
  • Skerret
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    Seems like a very gentle first step, but a step nonetheless.
    Skerret's posting is ok to trip balls to and read just to experience the ambience but don't expect any content.
    "I'm jealous of sucking major dick!"~ Kernowgaz
  • As I get older I find myself believing in something.
    I have my own particular slant on hows things are, and I can see the major flaws in the bible. I can see how a male dominated church that wanted to control the masses has stuck with laws that have no basis in society today. 
    One of the worst things to happen to the Christian faith was making church about rules and laws and less about God.
  • Religion has changed in the last 50 years. 
    It's not as black a white as everyone would like to point out. 
    There are different degrees of worship in society. Some involve God and some don't.

    Religion was formed to bring people together. In essence it was way to bring about simple laws in society.

    Its about a sense of community. But as I say, I do believe.  Once you understand who the first people were to write down the bible story, the rest of it becomes very simple to explain.
  • There is no difference between a cult and a religion. Its about who is in charge that decides whether it is a cult or religion.
  • Paul the sparky
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    They're all based on fairy tales, which I love. The Greek and Roman Gods were great, but the Norse ones are the best. They say Odin is a one eyed bastard.

    The Christian version is grim and boring in comparison.
  • Have to admit to reading up more on the Norse gods after watching Thor (yeah, I know, I know). They were epically entertaining. a lot of parallels with the Greek and Romans but just better. I've ordered a copy of the Poetic Edda as I want to know more.

    I still can't believe that, in this day people can still be devoutly following any religion given how shot full of holes the teachings and "facts" that their texts have become. I guess if you grab them young and ram it down their throats as fact, they'll believe it forever, against all the scientific evidence you can offer them.
  • They're all based on fairy tales, which I love. The Greek and Roman Gods were great, but the Norse ones are the best. They say Odin is a one eyed bastard. The Christian version is grim and boring in comparison.

    Every 'religion' is based on trying to prove the previous one was a load of nonsense. 
    Science is the most interesting one so far, as its getting us back to being very interactive with what we believe in. 

    The most passionate religious people I've ever spoken to are the atheists.
    If religion is based around belief then their God is a powerful one.
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    God put all that science stuff here to test us.

    EDIT: Wait are you calling science a religion?
  • Whatever that second one is Chump it's not showing for me.
  • Ali wrote:
    Have to admit to reading up more on the Norse gods after watching Thor (yeah, I know, I know). They were epically entertaining. a lot of parallels with the Greek and Romans but just better. I've ordered a copy of the Poetic Edda as I want to know more. I still can't believe that, in this day people can still be devoutly following any religion given how shot full of holes the teachings and "facts" that their texts have become. I guess if you grab them young and ram it down their throats as fact, they'll believe it forever, against all the scientific evidence you can offer them.


    I think that the science behind the creation of the world is correct. I also believe God exists.
    I'm sure of it. I don't think that mankind was able to understand the creation of the world at the time and so simplified it. 
    the original story was skewed so it favoured creation form the point of man. As per most religions. 
    No head of the church would ever believe that animals had the same rights as humans. They didn't think women had the same rights for goodness sake. 

    The bible is incorrect because it was written from the point of ignorance. it was never meant to be a set text, it was meant to be a spoken message that evolved as its people did.
  • Paul the sparky
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    What's made you sure of the existance of God then Revel?
  • What's made you sure of the existance of God then Revel?

    Petey did, when he created this forum.
  • Paul the sparky
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    Finally, a deity worthy of worship.
  • What's made you sure of the existance of God then Revel?

    I think that its something that you find yourself. Problem with church is @ali yes, they stuff down your throats how you should worship, how you should belief, what type of faith you should have.

    Because most religions are based around the guys that head that religion having control and more recently having money. Nothing to do with the moments of enlightenment, peace, the feeling of being surrounded by people that have the same faith or joy as you. (People experience this feeling more than you think - but that's another point.)
    Organised religion is about control of the population. Because years ago, life was hard. You bust your butt to survive. You had more children because many of them died. You were more likely to see suffering and pain on a daily basis. It was easier to make the people believe that If they acted good today and followed the rules, that there was going to be a reward for them when they died. 
    It was  system of control. 

    I don't believe in churches.

    Hence why the European missionaries took Africa using religion as a tool of control.
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