Je Suis Charlie - The Bear and Badger

Lord_Griff

Any way we a digressing, I was just very tickled by the statement... Rightly or wrongly.

Yossarian

Lord_Griff wrote:

Kow wrote:

Belief is not a choice, really. You either believe something or you don't.

I love the genius of this... Like, really love it. Can we call it a Kowism?

I agree with Kow, although maybe not in those words. Earlier on, you mentioned that people 'choose' their religion, but in most cases, that's not true, they've been raised into it. At best, you could say that they haven't chosen to step away from their faith (a decision that, in most cases will also necessarily involve causing issues with family and community, in many cases will involve rejecting the entire belief system of your home country, and in some cases will involve risking death).

But even putting that aside, if the only way you can understand the world and deal with all the shit it throws at you on a daily basis is to put your faith in a higher power, how much of a choice is that really?

JonB

Skerret wrote:

Of course they don't, that would be ridiculous. It doesn't work both ways anyway, not at the top (according to me and this is speculation, not assertion of indisputable fact). The grunts think they are doing god's work, but I doubt that the string-pullers buy in to the same degree. I'm talking about power and a viable means of acquiring it. As stated in the article, the behaviour of groups like BH is not at all consistent with the source text. BH exhibit behaviour consistent with power-hungry murderers, irrespective of the faith emblazoned on their banners. Their actions speak clearly of their motivations.

Yeah, a lot of the time religion seems to be nothing more than the excuse to blow shit up, maybe affecting the choice of targets at most. You have former Ba'athists joining ISIS, certainly not based on deep religious beliefs, and the practices are made up as they go along to a significant extent, bearing little or no relation to any interpretations of foundational texts. Identifying Islam as the culprit in all this seems like taking the easy way out and ignoring any bigger picture.

Lord_Griff

100% choice.

Kow

I think the idea that religion is always a choice highlights the fact that there is a huge gap in understanding. The facetious comments I was making about choosing what people will be offended by was I suppose my retarded way of pointing this out. Deciding what is or is not offensive for a group of people based on your own viewpoints makes little sense. While it is of course not the same, the black community has struggled to achieve a voice in America but they now have enough presence in media, politics, entertainment etc to convey injustice and their sense of identity to the world. The Muslim section of society has, as of yet, no such outlet. The fact that we do not understand what is and is not important to them is evidence of this. Declarations that we should in fact intensify our humiliation of what they hold dear, rather than seek to understand is a gross misstep.

[Deleted User]

It's only choice if you have been privy to the alternate viewpoint.

Lord_Griff

One could argue that adherence to strict dogma and all things Haram, preclude them being involved in media, politics and entertainment in any meaningful way.

You can see a similar issue in devout Christianity, the focus on end game removes people form day to day activities and involvement.

Kow

All religions are basically lunacy, but unfortunately we need to accommodate them.

Yossarian

Also, from the previous page:

Lord_Griff wrote:

Religion here, is being used as justification for their actions.

Didn't Bush say god had told him to go to war in Iraq?

Outlaw

I can't speak for all religions, but I was raised religous and it certainly didn't promote a lot of free thinking and questioning. As far as Catholics go my community was positively hippy but there was still fairly strict adherence to all things Catholic. It would be very hard to disentangle oneself from that if doing so meant you were considered literally evil.

Lord_Griff

If you set the rules, which are unalterable. Require isolation from others who do not see things your way. In addition to having a responsibility to enlarge the area/society in which you live. You'll find yourself at odds with all those who think differently. The result of which is unimportant if your subsequent interactions are peaceful.

Kow

Everything is some kind of power struggle in the end, the veneer over it doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

bad_hair_day

The cartoonist killers would have been privy to the alternate viewpoint.

Lord_Griff

Maybe the modern day freedoms of modern life are too much for us. On some level you all hark back to the golden ages of toiling in fields and just about existing with no time for anything else.

Grab your Niqab and lets do some time travel. "Where we're going, we don't need thoughts".

[Deleted User]

bad_hair_day wrote:

The cartoonist killers would have been privy to the alternate viewpoint.

For sure, I was countering "100% choice"

Yossarian

Luc Besson writes open letter to France's Muslims.

My brother, if you knew how badly I hurt for you today, you and your beautiful religion that has been so sullied, humilated, and singled out. Forgotten are your strength, your energy, your humor, your heart, your fraternity. It’s unfair and together we will repair this injustice. We are millions who love you and who are going to help you. Let’s start at the beginning. What is the society we’re offering you today?

It’s based on money, profit, segregation and racism. In some suburbs, unemployment for people under 25 is 50%. You are marginalized because of your color or your first name. You’re questioned 10 times a day, you’re crowded into apartment blocks and no one represents you. Who could live and thrive under such conditions?

Profit comes before all else. We cut and sell the apple tree’s branches and then are shocked there’s no fruit. The real problem is there, and that’s for all of us to resolve.

I call on the powerful, the big bosses and all leaders. Help this youth that has been humiliated and which asks only to be part of society. The economy is in the service of man and not the reverse. To do good is the greatest of profits. Dear powerful, do you have children? Do you love them? What do you want to leave them? Money? Why not a world that’s more fair? That would make your children the most proud of you.

We cannot build our happiness on the misfortune of others. It is neither Christian, nor Jewish, nor Muslim. It is just selfish and it leads our society and our planet straight into a wall. This is the work we have to do beginning today to honor our dead.

Terrorism will never win.

And you, my brother, you also have a job to do. How can you change this society that’s being offered to you? By working, by studying, by taking up a pencil rather than a kalishnikov. That’s what’s good about democracy, it offers you the noble tools to defend yourself. Take your destiny in hand, take the power. It costs 250 euros to buy a kalishnikov but not even three euros to buy a pen — and your response can have a thousand times more impact. Take the power, and play by the rules.

Take power democratically, helped by all your brothers. Terrorism will never win. History is there to prove it. And the beautiful image of the martyr walking in both directions. Today there are a thousand (assasinated Charlie Hebdo journalists) Cabus and Wolinskis who have just been born.

Take the power and don’t let anyone take power over you. If those who are presumed guilty of this tragedy really are, know that these two blood-spilling brothers are not yours, and we all know it.

It would at most be two weak-minded individuals, abandoned by society and then abused by a preacher who sold them eternity… Radical preachers who play on and make your misfortune their business have no good intentions. They use your religion only to their advantage. It is their business, their small business. Tomorrow, my brother, we will be stronger, more connected, closer. I promise you. But today, my brother, I cry with you.

Diluted Dante

I get what Kow is saying, but religion is a choice in a way race never will be. You can't decide that you are no longer black, but you can decide you are no longer Catholic. You can also decide that you are now Muslim, but you can't decide you are now white.

For sure, most people are indoctrinated into religion, but plenty of people disentangle themselves from it to either join another, or leave religion altogether.

But for sure the lack of a platform for British Muslims is a problem in this case, although I will point out that British Muslims make up only 4.4% of the population, compared to the 12.6% of black Americans, so in terms of public figures, America has a bigger pool to draw from.

Yossarian

For sure, most people are indoctrinated into religion, but plenty of people disentangle themselves from it to either join another, or leave religion altogether.

Plenty of people who live in fairly wealthy, secular countries such as ours do, for sure. In poorer countries where religion is much stronger, I doubt that the word 'plenty' would be accurate.

Kow

Black in the US implies more than just skin color though, it carries its own political baggage. There is a sense of community in some way, something that doesn't exist with white.

dynamiteReady

Lord_Griff wrote:

Are you comparing pillorying people for their colour with satirising the choice of beliefs?

I was also trying to put that point across to Ian Hamlett... It appears weak at first glance, because we tend to think that ideas have nothing in common with genetics...

But how one is cultured, is as much their choice, as is their eye colour or tone of voice.

The same might be true for how one might come to assimilate an idea, or respond to a culture. And some fields of research (particularly psychology) have identified some interesting facts... But let me not overcomplicate an idea that's far from concrete.

Kow

Also, trying to change religion from Islam to another is punishable by death in some countries. Hardly a choice.

Diluted Dante

Difficulty of making the decision just makes is a difficult choice with heavy penalties. Either way, I'm largely agreeing with you.

[Deleted User]

It takes an incredibly strong will of character to turn your back on a religion, not everyone possesses that even if their belief may be long gone.

Outlaw

Remember Mariam Ibrahaim? She chose Christianity and was imprisoned, sentenced to death and forced to give birth in prison in shackles. In the face of all this she refused to convert - that's how strong her choice/faith is.

IanHamlett

Yossarian wrote:

IanHamlett wrote:

@Brooks Yeah let's flannel round the periphery. Mind you don't generalise, that's the main thing.

You've yet to offer a single example of what it is about Islam in and of itself which is the root of the problem. You're just holding up examples of acts by small groups of people who claim to be acting in the name of Islam, the majority of which would be condemned by the majority of Muslims and so which clearly are not representative of the faith as a whole. The issue here is more down to there being many different interpretations of Islam, and it being quite easy to find parts of the Quran which will justify a previously-held belief or practise that is already present in a society. This, combined with Islam's popularity in poor and therefore poorly educated countries, results in a situation where all kinds of regressive beliefs which spring from small, poor communities are continued under Islam by finding some verse which can be taken to mean that whatever you want to do is supported. That quote from BHD is a case in point, I wouldn't personally take that to mean that followers of Islam should kill anyone who insults the Mohamed, the vast majority of Muslims don't murder people who insult the prophet. A small number of people who wish to find justification for murder and war do take that to mean just that. So yes, flannel round the periphery, because that's where you'll find the problems.

I don't know exactly what it is about islam that causes problems. Just like the people that made the link between smoking and lung cancer didn't know exactly what was so bad in the smoke. Sure, people are using religion to hang their anger on and it's not something inherent to the Quran. It has some "kill them where you find them" lines but so do other religious books.

Maybe I'm just a really really good guesser. Maybe when I saw "Bomb strapped to 10 year old girl" it really could have been people from any religion that did it. Maybe it's the western media under-reporting all the times that christian extremists strapped a bomb to a girl.

Maybe it's just because all these countries happen to be poor. They just happen to have these ultra-conservative views. Is that a coincidence too? People still acting like it's 700 years ago, having half their potential work kept from doing certain types of work.

Coincidence, that's probably it.

Yossarian

Maybe it's just because all these countries happen to be poor. They just happen to have these ultra-conservative views. Is that a coincidence too?

Hells no. Poor country = poor education, poor education = less awareness of the rest of the world, less awareness of the rest of the world = less open minds, less open minds = more fear of change, more fear of change = more conservatism.

These things are totally and inextricably linked.

Lord_Griff

Were Muslim countries relatively well off during the period where they led the world in scientific endeavour? Or were they, in actuality, broadly equal to everyone else, maybe behind the curve of some other empires?

Lord_Griff

What is the motivation behind the Saudi Wahabist movement and funding and promotion of this very hard-line and medieval interpretation of Islam... and to what end?

IanHamlett

Yossarian wrote:

Maybe it's just because all these countries happen to be poor. They just happen to have these ultra-conservative views. Is that a coincidence too?

Hells no. Poor country = poor education, poor education = less awareness of the rest of the world, less awareness of the rest of the world = less open minds, less open minds = more fear of change, more fear of change = more conservatism. These things are totally and inextricably linked.

I mean is it a coincidence that they happen to be poor and predominantly muslim or does the religion keep the girls out of schools/work and help keep them poor.

Yossarian

The religion certainly doesn't keep girls out of school or work. I worked in Egypt, the most populous Arab country, 97% Muslim, girls were just as well educated as boys.

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