Je Suis Charlie - The Bear and Badger

nick_md

The sunni - shia divide was again introduced largely after Operation Iraqi Freedom, right? As in, Shia were granted the majority of the power, which resulted in an us-them mentality which continues to this day.

Pretty sure sunni and shia were quite happy together, historically. Then again, so were Jews and Arabs.

bad_hair_day

Happy is stretching it a bit. Arabian overlords kept alive infidels to extort heavy taxes from the Christians and Jews.

JonB

IanHamlett wrote:

It's daft to think that western aggression isn't a big part of it. But looking at the number of fired up young muslims that think 9/11 was mossad, I'm not sure actual facts are totally necessary for radicalisation.

Of course they are. Nobody turns to terrorism if everything's just fine and dandy.

I mean, you can obviously pile the bullshit on top of that, but there has to be some pretty major discontent there in the first place for it to stick.

nick_md

bad_hair_day wrote:

Happy is stretching it a bit. Arabian overlords kept alive infidels to extort heavy taxes from the Christians and Jews.

Understood, but there was less kneeling in orange jump suits, at least.

JonB

nick_md wrote:

Anyone watch Panorama last night? I know it's the state broadcaster so propaganda ahoy, but there was one section which just flat-out dismissed foreign policy having an influence on acts of extremism, and even went to suggest that the trend of blaming FP is worrying. Just, I honestly don't know what to say. It seems hugely retarded to me to dismiss, considering illegal action either carried out or supported (Iraq, Palestine etc) serves as one humungous recruitment drive for clowns like IS. It's head in the sand stuff.

This is what I mean by equality of speech. If western countries are causing the massive damage they're causing in the Middle East etc., and at the same time refusing to even discuss the effects of it and whether maybe not doing it would be a good idea, then there's not really any free dialogue, despite the formal freedoms of speech. If people feel victimised, and can't be heard any other way, that in itself leads to violence.

So, not only is there a link between FP and radicalism, there's also a link between refusing to talk about that link and terrorism.

Anyone who goes around championing free speech and doesn't use that freedom to speak up for those who tend to get excluded from mainstream debate is a hypocrite.

IanHamlett

nick_md wrote:

Pretty sure sunni and shia were quite happy together, historically. Then again, so were Jews and Arabs.

It's been plain sailing since the battle of siffin.

Roujin

Je suis the 2000 Nigerians that died at the hands of Boko Haram.

Pretty disgusting that it has barely received a mention in the news, despite happening at the same time as the Paris shootings.

IanHamlett

JonB wrote:

Anyone who goes around championing free speech and doesn't use that freedom to speak up for those who tend to get excluded from mainstream debate is a hypocrite.

I thought the last time israel palestine kicked off was a step in the right direction for the press in general. It'd been decades where it felt like I was alone in complaining, me and the people that just flat-out hate jews, about the coverage. Social media has been a big part of the last couple of kick-offs but I thought the mainstream news did significantly better, possible because of social media, last time round.

IanHamlett

Roujin wrote:

Je suis the 2000 Nigerians that died at the hands of Boko Haram. Pretty disgusting that it has barely received a mention in the news, despite happening at the same time as the Paris shootings.

When I clicked the link that said "bomb strapped to 10 year old girl" I was shocked to find out what religion they all were. It could've been anyone really.

Yossarian

They should have done the decent thing and just carpet-bombed the place. That's far more humane.

IanHamlett

Are you saying that military intervention in Nigeria would be a bad thing and it should be left to the people that literally strap bombs to kids?

Yossarian

Are you aware of the results of recent military interventions by the West?

Lord_Griff

http://metro.co.uk/2012/09/12/channel-4-cancels-islam-documentary-screening-after-death-threats-572249/

[Deleted User]

‘We remain extremely proud of the film, which is still available to view on 4oD.”

Congrats on promoting the docu death threaters.

LarryDavid

I don't think it's true in this case but falsely stating that your film has been 'banned' or subject to death threats if shown is a great way of drumming up interest.

I'm sure a crafty marketing department could get a few articles planted into the press saying what an outrage 'film x' is, etc.

Lord_Griff

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/the-origins-of-islam/4808592

dynamiteReady

Liveinadive wrote:

‘We remain extremely proud of the film, which is still available to view on 4oD.” Congrats on promoting the docu death threaters.

It's probably shit, which is why they didn't bother.

Brooks

Foreign policy is a crucial part of the story, but it wouldn't be a trigger to domestic terrorism if there weren't a bunch of marginalised angry young men with poor prospects around looking for a reason to be.

bad_hair_day

Can't they get a job in their Uncle's Take-away?

Brooks

I dunno, they were shot up before anyone could ask.

Yossarian

Lord_Griff wrote:

http://metro.co.uk/2012/09/12/channel-4-cancels-islam-documentary-screening-after-death-threats-572249/

That is clearly shitty, but there is an important distinction to be made between receiving death threats, even credible ones, and being the subject of a fatwa. I mean Sarkeesian was subjected to death threats credible enough for her to leave her home just for examining sexism in videogames.

nick_md

@B True, you can see something of that in Rwanda: Foreign policy has severely fucked that place over in many ways, and DRC as a consequence thereafter, but the lights are on, the place (appears) to be all hunky dory, so I guess less uproar from the masses.

Then again, especially in the ME, how much has FP contributed to those marginalised and angry young men? It's still very much related imo.

Brooks

Well it certainly gives someone a broad cause to pile their anxieties into. Like a more uppity version of our Ills thread.

None of us would struggle to locate an offensive structural injustice to outrage over, but we'd have to be deeply desperate and beyond the mainstream of economic and social activity go all bomby and gunny. That's a part of the problem, we have to be able to foster reformism without just opting for lethal violence. Not least because we would personally have a shitload to lose.

dynamiteReady

Brooks wrote:

Foreign policy is a crucial part of the story, but it wouldn't be a trigger to domestic terrorism if there weren't a bunch of marginalised angry young men with poor prospects around looking for a reason to be.

Well... Bin Laden was a squillionaire a long time before his death, was he not?
And I've met some terrifyingly well educated white Brits who converted to Islam, and champion fundamental practices.

One chick I got to know quite well, was particularly interesting...
As smart as fuck. A teacher. And one you could well imagine to be a paragon of best practice.

She told me that she once taught at some prestigious private school at one time before she 'converted' (what an awful expression) to Islam, started showing up for work in a burkha, and... well... She did not have to hand in her notice, as you could well guess.

I met her as a new housemate not long after that episode apparently, if her story was to be believed. And I believed it for sure...
She was the most charming chick... Reminded me of the well mannered, upper middle class type you'd find in the likes of Downton Abbey... Except for the burkha, and the fact that she now lived in shared, rented accomodation... Deep blue eyes. Would look extremely good without the burkha... And she was remarkably well read. I remember borrowing a copy of the Great Gatsby from her...

We'd sometimes meet in the kitchen, and would talk for hours... And if you know me a little, I'm not the idle chit chat type.

Not too long before we were all evicted (don't worry... that part of the story isn't as interesting as it sounds. Just a stupid landlord), she went away for awhile, Iran she said... When she came back, she told me about the whole thing.... They actually assigned her a government escort for the duration of the trip (though I think she was part of an official group of like-minded women), and I think she got to meet a few top ranking Iranian officials... About a week after that, she was invited on some random daytime TV show panel, and I can certainly imagine her getting airtime now...

Wish I stayed in touch with her.

I also wish I made more of an effort to understand why she changed her life so drastically.
You see, I can not envisage myself doing what she did, and did not admire her for the change that she made (read that carefully please, I can imagine that being a very easy line to misconstrue), but I liked her, as she was, alot... If she wasn't so devoted to her religion, I'd have definitely moved' to her... But I guess the only reason why we met, was because of her super unusual circumstances...

Sigh...

This is now a 'baw' thread...

edit - Not a Burkha, sorry. Most likely a Hijab.

Brooks

I feel like Binny and your white girl there are pretty anomalous. There are many more busted dudes, both in Europe and certainly in the Middle East itself, and it's jolly helpful to ladder-climbing egomaniacs that there are because it gives them a political constituency.

mistercrayon

Heh, the world can be pretty shitty sometimes, people find their novocaine in all sorts of places. Imagine working in a private school, perhaps becoming disillusioned with wealthiness and perhaps an oversaturated amount of assholery. It's not surprising to me that people might try and chase some above superficial level meaning in the nonsense. At which point anything that gives an answer will be absorbed into the body like germs sucked into the vacuum of a bullet hole.

I also agree (I think) with Brooks. Essentially why not bypass all the rich people flaunting shite in your face when you are scrabbling around to make ends meet, you can trump them by aligning with the ruler of the universe. Narcotic.

tin_robot

My wife's muslim, though not especially devout. (In much the same way many people in the UK are Christian - she understands the religion, and is likely to be pleading to that particular flavour of God should she ever find herself in a plane crash, but doesn't really practice it in any meaningful way.) Her parents are considerably more dedicated, and feel tangible sadness at my failure to convert, and even more so at our insistence that the children make up their own minds when they're old enough. They pray 5 times a day, have been on Hajj several times, always observe Ramadan, and so on. Various of her many (many) aunts and uncles are yet more pious still.

I mention this purely because I fail to recognise the "them" that are portrayed in the media, and to some degree in this thread, when talking about muslims. Some people I've met do find the cartoons offensive because, well, if you're muslim they are - particularly given that the "joke" seems to be nothing more sophisticated than "look, we did something naughty that those people won't like". They would rather the cartoons didn't exist, but then they would rather I had converted - they have accepted both insults with disappointed grace, and barely comment unless asked directly. For the vast, vast majority of people it's not a "thing" - except people keep insisting on going on about it.

So yeah, obvious and patronising observations I know, but it's genuinely painful to watch people branding a whole group as having hateful views just because of their given belief in a prophet. (A belief which, yes, I personally find bizarre, so what? The list of things that people believe in that I find bizarre is incredibly long, ranging from football teams to religion to my wife's truly ridiculous notion that I am, in some indefinable way, not hideous.)

Oppose the things you find offensive - oppression, female subjugation, homophobia, violence, whatever - in their own right. I certainly challenge them when I come across them, though interestingly have found more occasion to do so amongst my (largely white, middle class) patients than I have amongst my extended family of in-laws. Pinning such acts to one particular subset of humanity because you think one trait or another might be more prominent is self defeating, and merely invites others to exploit your prejudices.

Funkstain

Agree with stoph. Human stupidity ignorance fear depravity sadism and prejudice cross all boundaries of class creed culture race and religion.

As fortunately do their opposites. There should be no "them" only "us". But there will always be "them", whilst "us" remains a mockery of solidarity, and a paragon of selfish insular unquestioning simplicity.

Kow

I'm currently deciding what you all find offensive, ok?

[Deleted User]

Kow wrote:

I'm currently deciding what you all find offensive, ok?

Fatties in legins.

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