The British Politics Thread
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Best by-election performance by a governing party in terms of the increase in the share of its vote for 51 years. From a party that is singlehandedly destroying the public sector.
Corbyn doesn't so much need to fall on his sword as do some synchronised diving with Tom Daly and launch himself into a pool of broadswords.
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I love how a petulant, anti corbyn candidate was picked in Copeland, didn't even bother making a concession speech, and yet corbyn is to blame for the defeat.
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Yossarian wrote:Corbyn's blaming 'disunity' for the defeat. The only real disunity I've seen recently is when he pushed MPs into an impossible position over article 50 with a three line whip.
Oh yeah, leave voters in Copeland deffo punished him for that *snort -
Gremill wrote:
He can have all the great policy ideas in the world, but it's totally pointless if he had no idea how to turn that into votes or lead his party. He's utterly fucking useless.I guess im the last Corbyn supporter here. I accept he's a poor leader, but i still dont see anyone else proposing the sort of policies we need on housing/environment/transport etc. When that happens i'll reconsider.
Policies can win vote, especially if they matter and aim to make a change . He's not getting through but someone else might. The problem with him going now is that they will argue it isn't him, it's his policies that are obnoxious, so we need a middle of the road pretty boy with vacuous "it's the right/thing/to do" soundbites -
He's poisonous, he never had any credibility with the general public and amazingly now has even less.
He's a stubborn arse though so I'm sure he'll stay. -
The good news is UKIP look more fucked. British politics will be in a much better place once they're finally consigned to irrelevance.
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legaldinho wrote:I love how a petulant, anti corbyn candidate was picked in Copeland, didn't even bother making a concession speech, and yet corbyn is to blame for the defeat.
Well, the anti-nuclear stance was never going to go down well there to be fair. Don't know much about the candidate, other than she's pro nuclear and anti Corbyn. -
The problem is you're not going to get alternative policy agendas outside of a leadership contest. No party works like that. He has to go and we have to take our chances on one of the candidates not being a shit.equinox_code wrote:I guess im the last Corbyn supporter here.
I accept he's a poor leader, but i still dont see anyone else proposing the sort of policies we need on housing/environment/transport etc. When that happens i'll reconsider.
It cant really get worse than Corbyn though.
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Things can only get better. -
I really don't think it will go down like this. Not because the right of Labour aren't shits and would try to frame it this way, but the membership will vote for the leftist candidate in any leadership contest. Chuka isn't going to get in. Jarvis and Starmer might struggle. Due to the need to get nominations from MPs, the membership aren't going to get quite the range of candidates they might want, but they're not going to vote in a Blairite either.legaldinho wrote:Gremill wrote:
He can have all the great policy ideas in the world, but it's totally pointless if he had no idea how to turn that into votes or lead his party. He's utterly fucking useless.I guess im the last Corbyn supporter here. I accept he's a poor leader, but i still dont see anyone else proposing the sort of policies we need on housing/environment/transport etc. When that happens i'll reconsider.
Policies can win vote, especially if they matter and aim to make a change . He's not getting through but someone else might. The problem with him going now is that they will argue it isn't him, it's his policies that are obnoxious, so we need a middle of the road pretty boy with vacuous "it's the right/thing/to do" soundbites
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I think that the PLP would have to be pretty retarded to think that they can go back to business as usual, but you never know. Still, right now I figure that's a risk worth taking. At least we may get a functioning opposition out of it. -
The question is how do you rebuild Labour into being a nationally representative party that can form a govt? There's no answer to that that involves Corbyn as leader. There's risks in getting rid of him but if you're on a sinking ship, everything's a risk and you just have to work out how to survive.
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Corbyn's a dead duck. He should set about picking a successor before Progress etc pick one for him and we end up with another slimy Blair-type figure.
Despite my hopes for Corbs and the fact I agree with him on many things I think it's obvious that the British public have spoken and it's a resounding 'No thanks beardy'. His approval ratings have been consistently awful and I think it's far too late to begin turning anything around, assuming Corbyn had the ability to do so (which is doubtful). Yes, he's been fucked by the press and some elements of his own party but even so he's made countless mistakes and failed repeatedly to lay a glove on a truly appalling Conservative government.
Looking at the current Labour Party there's no clear future leader, of the right or the left. I'd prefer Labour to move back leftwards, but in a less shambolic fashion than we saw under Corbyn (if anything it's proved that a naive hope of getting by without PR men and spin doctors in today's politics is almost impossible). -
We'll get what we deserve, Larry — another slickster.
Diluted Dante wrote:she's pro nuclear
I would've defended the EU had I been in Corbyn's place, but I'd have done so with the utter conviction that I was sabotaging my career. Are we all basing our opinions on Corbyn from BBC Parliament, or via third-parties... -
Not really. The Conservatives have just adjusted themselves further to the right to grab their votes, and made their zany ideas seem more mainstream in the process.monkey wrote:The good news is UKIP look more fucked. British politics will be in a much better place once they're finally consigned to irrelevance.
British politics/democracy is actually properly fucked for various reasons. Labour are fucked with Corbyn and fucked with anyone else. But I'd still choose Corbyn over anyone else that's stood for the leadership position, just because he provides a different narrative and different policy suggestions. The only hope is a very gradual acceptance that some of those ideas (and ideas from smaller parties like the Greens) are the way forward. -
Maybe our latest PIP cuts can go towards HS2. -
JonB wrote:
Not really. The Conservatives have just adjusted themselves further to the right to grab their votes, and made their zany ideas seem more mainstream in the process.monkey wrote:The good news is UKIP look more fucked. British politics will be in a much better place once they're finally consigned to irrelevance.
British politics/democracy is actually properly fucked for various reasons. Labour are fucked with Corbyn and fucked with anyone else. But I'd still choose Corbyn over anyone else that's stood for the leadership position, just because he provides a different narrative and different policy suggestions. The only hope is a very gradual acceptance that some of those ideas (and ideas from smaller parties like the Greens) are the way forward.
But his narrative and policies aren't actually that good. A lot of what he says is tinkering at the edges of capitalism, a bit more state control here, a boost for the unions there, but it pretty much fails to deal with the most pressing problems facing people such as the gig economy, increasing automation.
If the Labour party wanted to make the case for UBI and started making the case for a post-work world, they might be getting somewhere, but they aren't, and the policies that they are suggesting aren't going nearly far enough, nor are they putting together a compelling vision for what the future might look like. -
Corbyn's biggest failing for me is that he didn't put forward radical alternative policy ideas, and he often didn't change the narrative at all - because his message never reached the majority of voters, or his message was confused and poorly delivered...
For the general public, without an interest in politics and only vaguely paying attention to the news he was just that scruffy man who always seemed to be dealing with cock up's in his own party rather than appealing to them. That's unfair of course, most people are half-arsed at best about politics, and our disgusting media treated him appallingly from the start but even so Corbyn has never looked like finding a way to reach out to voters or reach through the swampy waters of lies, distortion, idiotcy and bias that is the British media and get his message across. -
The Tories swinging to the right shouldn't normally be a problem as, with a credible opposition, it's electoral poison. Since Major, their leaders have been continually dragged righter than they want to be (with the exception of IDS who really was like that). Only Cameron (their Blair-like, election friendly centrist bid) managed to temporarily tame those forces but only by offering catastrophic concessions.JonB wrote:
Not really. The Conservatives have just adjusted themselves further to the right to grab their votes, and made their zany ideas seem more mainstream in the process. British politics/democracy is actually properly fucked for various reasons. Labour are fucked with Corbyn and fucked with anyone else. But I'd still choose Corbyn over anyone else that's stood for the leadership position, just because he provides a different narrative and different policy suggestions. The only hope is a very gradual acceptance that some of those ideas (and ideas from smaller parties like the Greens) are the way forward.The good news is UKIP look more fucked. British politics will be in a much better place once they're finally consigned to irrelevance.
Corbyns narrative and policy suggestions are not known, he can't communicate them and, such is the cheapness of the politics, that he's doing more harm than good by his personal association with the policies. All a future Tory / Labour leader needs to do is call a certain decent socialist policy 'Corbynite' and that's it, it's done, discussion over. -
It's not easy finding this person, and its not a magic bullet, but a left-centre, not a cunt but still a bit of a cunt, mainstream Labour leader could change this whole scene in a no time. Suddenly May is pressured from both sides and has to make concessions to the left and to the right, the whole thing falls apart and suddenly the Tories are all over the place, caught between their membership and mad MPs who want hard brexit and their saner MPs and the rest of the country (that might have voted Brexit but not a Tory ultra right Brexit that this is turning into).
Whether there's such a candidate in the PLP, and whether they can make it through, who knows. But they don't need to be Blair v2.0 or anything. Just another Miliband would be enough to break the toxic right-wing stranglehold on politics. -
Everyone goes on about Labour being split on Brexit. It's bullshit. The Tories are in the same boat but in reverse. The proportions are more or less equal. There's no reason Labour shouldn't be the adults in the room that are attracting Tory voters absolutely disgusted by what their party is up to. Corbyn isn't to blame for most of what people lay on his door, but the thing that is absolutely his fault is this feeling of complete hopelessness on the left. Labour is hopelessly divided because their leader is hopeless, its not structurally in any worse state than the Tories.
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I think something a tad stronger than Miliband mk 2 might be required, but it's a start.
Maybe Ed's passed successfully through bacon sandwich bootcamp and can be allowed back into society. -
Lol. Just for clarity, not another Miliband, just another Miliband type. The leader doesn't need to be the second coming of Christ to lead an effective opposition and look like a credible govt.LarryDavid wrote:
"I'm back baby!" -
You either need an anointed Corbyn successor, or a force of nature politician who can overcome the problem of another leadership challenge. I'm not sure either exist currently.
Course, if Corbyn just ups and quits, that's different. -
Surely a feeling of hopelessness on the left has been there for 30+ years? It came through seeing the old social democratic world destroyed, repeated failure at the ballot box and then, when a Labour government finally came to power, realising that they had no intention of fighting for the things that the left believed in and merely wanted to reinforce Thatcherism, but with a fake kindly veneer.
I wouldn't blame Corbyn for that. Had Labour looked leftwards before him he might not have been lumbered with such an impossible position.
EDIT: Ed was a step in the right direction in some ways, but like Corbyn he was forced on the party by an irate membership -
Yeah, I'm 31, and have never had a sense that Labour are there to represent me.
Trying to improve politics on the left requires a commitment I just don't have the strength for right now. -
Sure, it's not great but I'm not seeing the better alternative for Labour in that sense. Any likely replacement would be looking to find a place between Corbyn's support base and the neoliberals. They certainly aren't going to be more radical.Yossarian wrote:But his narrative and policies aren't actually that good. A lot of what he says is tinkering at the edges of capitalism, a bit more state control here, a boost for the unions there, but it pretty much fails to deal with the most pressing problems facing people such as the gig economy, increasing automation. If the Labour party wanted to make the case for UBI and started making the case for a post-work world, they might be getting somewhere, but they aren't, and the policies that they are suggesting aren't going nearly far enough, nor are they putting together a compelling vision for what the future might look like.
Meanwhile, in two leadership elections no such person has put themselves forward. Or you might as well pick any of the previous candidates and get back to the terminal downward spiral of politics as usual.monkey wrote:It's not easy finding this person, and its not a magic bullet, but a left-centre, not a cunt but still a bit of a cunt, mainstream Labour leader could change this whole scene in a no time. Suddenly May is pressured from both sides and has to make concessions to the left and to the right, the whole thing falls apart and suddenly the Tories are all over the place, caught between their membership and mad MPs who want hard brexit and their saner MPs and the rest of the country (that might have voted Brexit but not a Tory ultra right Brexit that this is turning into). Whether there's such a candidate in the PLP, and whether they can make it through, who knows. But they don't need to be Blair v2.0 or anything. Just another Miliband would be enough to break the toxic right-wing stranglehold on politics. -
They've been the lesser of two evils party for years, and now it seems like people have just decided they may as well vote full evil and get there quicker, it'll be the same end result.
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JonB wrote:Sure, it's not great but I'm not seeing the better alternative for Labour in that sense. Any likely replacement would be looking to find a place between Corbyn's support base and the neoliberals. They certainly aren't going to be more radical.
I don't disagree with this assessment at all, but the fact is that Corbyn is failing to lead an effective opposition. If we are going to give him a pass on this owing to the strength of his policies, then his policies better be pretty damn great. They aren't, so what we're left with is someone who is a shit opposition leader with a set of policies that aren't that great either. This doesn't strike me as a worthwhile trade-off.
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