There's some meta issue here too isn't there? That there's individual choice to get involved in that kind of political activity, and society doesn't always make it easy. Feels like there's two layers to break through, so I'm not sure it inherently helps if people are struggling with the first even before the second. But I do basically agree, despite that. Hypocritically.

JonB wrote:

To add, it's worth noting that the focus on consumer choices, plastic bags etc. can actually be counterproductive to change. And that's because in a lot of cases it's become a replacement for any other kind of action. It's a way to make us feel like we're already doing out bit so there's no need to do anything else, and that is dangerous. 

Ethical consumerism is not a replacement for politics.

I very much agree with this.

But … What’s really needed is both.


Personally, I have an issue with politicians/government falling into the same trap. Making policy that focuses on the wrong things, either because they’re trying to appeal to voters instead of making necessary unpopular moves, or deliberately as misdirection.

Yeah this is purely for the imminent political apocalypse.

It’s win-win for me on Thursday. Or at least draw-win. First outcome is a hung parliament, which probably means another election next year. Hopefully with a new Labour leader in place that people haven’t had a chance to hate yet. Second outcome is a Tory majority. In which case the I told you so action I’ll be having in this thread should make up for the asset stripping of my country.

Polls seem to fluctuate between a hung parliament and a Tory landslide. And such is the batshit electoral system that both are within the margin of error within each individual poll. Seems like the Midlands and North are falling Tory and the South going Labour. Just remains to be seen what the extent is of each.

hunk wrote:

In defence of SG:
The philosophy of the enlightenment has taught us individuals are important and (mostly) responsible for themselves and their own fate. Therefore the guilt sg (and many others) are feeling is only natural, we are the products of our culture and upbringing.

Which would be fair enough if he only came in here to voice that guilt and what he's doing to alleviate it. But that's not what happened, is it? He instead chose to point the finger at the parents on this tiny forum, and blame them for his guilt. Which would be bad enough is he was right, but:

Grassroots movements is a slow way of bringing change. Govermental (social!) policies from above are a much more effecient and effective way to tackle issues. But we need social, intelligent, sane and ethical governments to implement that, something which society is sadly lacking atm.

That proves him wrong, dunnit?

And while I'm here, fuck all the fence sitting hand wringers twisting their face at me because of what I said to SG on Saturday night. If he's going to go at members of the forum personally, and having a pop at people for how they spend their time, money, raise their children etc. is about as personal as it gets, then it's only fair the way he lives his life is going to come under scrutiny too. It's odd that the hand wringers don't want to say anything about what SG said and the way he said it, but only admonish my reaction to it.

@paulie
Not sure what beef you 2 got cooking but take it to pm. Fwiw, that wasn't my takeaway from SG's posting but whatevs.

poprock wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

It's odd that the hand wringers don't want to say anything about what SG said and the way he said it, but only admonish my reaction to it.

‘Hand wringers’ my arse. You went too far, is all. And now you keep trying to bring it back up when the rest of us have moved on.

I think your reaction was beyond the pale. Telling anybody to kill themselves, under any circumstances, is too much. I wouldn’t even say that to Boris fucking Johnson.

So for me, your comment eclipsed the conversation at that point. You killed the chance of discussing the thing you wanted to argue against. You fucked it.

I don’t claim to speak for anyone else here but you seem desperate for a reaction, so there’s mine.

I didn't say he should kill himself, get it right. I made the point that he should practice what he preaches. I asked if he's going to stop buying his son things, and pointed out that it wouldn't matter if he drank himself into an early grave and became carbon neutral (although he'd feed a few worms I suppose, so let's say he now has a negative carbon footprint) it wouldn't make a difference to the wider world. He can't influence the world to that extent as an individual no matter what he does.

And I'm the one looking for a reaction? But your pal SG was only airing an innocent, innocuous political musing by coming on this small corner of the internet and laying a global crisis at the feet of a few parents? Get thyself to fuck with that.

poprock wrote:

monkey wrote:

Seems like the Midlands and North are falling Tory and the South going Labour.

Literally bizarro world. The opposite of what I learned as reality growing up.

I mean even the wildest of outcomes has most of those seats going the way you expect. Just the amount that each might swing might be unusual. The Remain vote is slowly coalescing around Labour but Tory voters don’t seem to be. They’re going Lib Dem which means they’re often cancelling Labour votes out. Plenty of reports of Labour voters going Tory though.
Who knows? It’s all glorified guesswork. Maybe the surge in new registrations means the pollsters voting models are wrong. Maybe Labour voters will just stay at home instead of voting Tory. I’d be surprised if Johnson is out of a job on Friday though. Even without a majority in Parliament I’d expect him to cling on and get Labour to force him while he bleats about the will of the people.

mistercrayon wrote:

monkey wrote:

Second outcome is a Tory majority. In which case the I told you so action I’ll be having in this thread should make up for the asset stripping of my country.

Don’t do this.

Yep. I'll say I told you so as well, people like you talking shit for years are part the problem. Smug cunt. Etc etc.

So why don't you fuck off before you start, eh, monkey?

It's the anxiety before the election.

The inherent problem is that both sides of the political argument think their opposition are fucking stupid.

mistercrayon wrote:

Second outcome is a Tory majority. In which case the I told you so action I’ll be having in this thread should make up for the asset stripping of my country.

Don’t do this.

Was just a joke really (although I reserve the right to at least one given the personal vitriol I've been on the wrong end of). The optimum outcome is me being on the wrong side of it and Corbyn getting in. I'll happily take the licks if that happens. 

This has all been decades in the making but this particular phase of left-wing politics goes back to 2015. That was the real crunch point for left-leaning politics. Five candidates for Labour leader. Four of them backed austerity. Four of them had seen five years of it happening to the communities they represent. They'd just lost an election in which the feedback was showing them they weren't being taken seriously on the economy. Their conclusion was to adopt Tory-lite versions of austerity. Not because they thought it was right. Not because it made any economic sense. Just because they had no other ideas left. 

In the time since then none of them have really stuck their head above the parapet. Nearly all have hunkered down waiting for it to go wrong so they can have another crack at taking control. None of them want the traitor tag. They all want to triangulate their way to getting Corbyn's membership votes so have taken no positions up to now. Ready to bring in a load of watered-down policies derived from whatever ill-informed mumbo jumbo comes out of the focus groups. No leadership. No ideas.  So if the nightmare scenario happens, all these centre-lefties will come crawling out the woodwork ready to strike again with all their 'I told you so's. My suspicion is that they haven't learnt a thing. Or they've learnt all the wrong things. 

What's really needed is a large debate about the future of the left. What it needs to do and how it's going to win. That's probably not going to happen. Corbyn will anoint a successor either officially or with a nod and a wink. Then the rest of the PLP will unite behind one bellend to try and stop them. That bellend's job will be to sound a bit like Corbyn, but promising they can win in the country, while having all the personality and charisma of an actual bellend. Anyway this is all a bit pre-emptive. Just went off on one.

Smug cunt. Join the Tories. Oh shit we've lost.

Anyway, I'll leave the recriminations and flouncing and infighting instead of uniting for a few days.

davyK wrote:

There is no room for environmental concerns because it isn't profitable. Maybe it could be but those in charge are not interested in the short term losses a transformation would entail. Governments aren't competent enough, stay around long enough, or powerful enough in isolation to be able to deal with it.

I believe the existence of career politicians is the root cause of most of our problems – but I don’t have any suggestions for workable alternative systems.

Focusing on the next election cycle prevents long-term thinking. Constantly appealing to the lowest common denominator for sheer numbers of votes instead of taking the high ground and trying to do what’s best for the country or world.

That said, China (as an example of an alternative system) has its own different set of barriers to positive change.

These absolute shitcunts are largely to blame as well.