The British Politics Thread
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Just to be clear: I don’t think the deal will go well BUT I think you have to say if the country is in a healthy position then Labour should hold their hands up and say the other lot have earnt the right to continue running the country. Of course it won’t happen and in this case Labour should be no where near endorsing this deal.
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If it’s bad, Labour should oppose. Vote for it and they lose any right to complain about the many after effects. I don’t think they can hide behind an abstention on this one.
It’s totally Johnson’s responsibility at this point. Labour shouldn’t be helping the Tories get through a shit deal because they’re too fractured to do it themselves. They’re only in power on the promise of getting this done. -
I mean, Labour could put forward an amendment which effectively replaces whatever wheeze they've cooked up with the deal they offered to the electorate last December.
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Yeah, but they can vote against then having proposed the Government stick to their manifesto commitment. Absolutely hammer home that they called and won an election on this.
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They can't gamble voting against, they may actually end up with enough Tory rebels that it actually happens.
Labour will abstain, it is the only rational move. -
Surely the best thing for Labour to do is nothing for this one?
If the deal is shit, well they can vote against it. But if it goes through they look anti-brexit which going on the last election isnt a good deal. If they vote for it and it is shit, they can be tared (and likely will be)
Make a clear statment - whatever happens, this is a conservative government. Its their call. If they cant whip their votes in line that it doesnt pass, they are a shit government. If it does pass and it goes bad, its on them (but look, we all know the EU will be blamed on either scenario)
Not sure if a "good" deal is possible for anyone in this.SFV - reddave360 -
It’s not Labour’s job to save the government from themselves. I get this is people’s jobs, businesses etc, and they shouldn’t play politics with it. But equally they shouldn’t be propping up the Tories if they can’t even get their own signature piece of legislation through. That’s they whole reason they’re in power. How much more damage are they going to do in four years if Labour bail them out now? If Johnson gets to keep bragging about how great he is for getting Brexit done? That’s another 9 years potentially. What’s the most defensible position 4 years from now?
Crayon (edit - nope, it was Livdiv) on the the last page said it would probably end up the same as yesterday’s vote. Big rebellion but will still go through so doesn’t matter either way. But this supersedes all culture war, abstention, not wanting to alienate the working class stuff. There’s going to be a reckoning for this one day.
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Yeah but, if labout oppose... what then? They cant re-negotiate can they?
We are in December. Its this deal or no deal - that is still the default come 1st Jan 2021 isnt it?SFV - reddave360 -
The greatest trick the Tories ever pulled was having a full blown civil war for three years and telling everyone that it was Labour’s fault for blocking the deal.
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Yeah but this blackmail trick has been going for four years now. Take the Tories piss poor deal or they’ll no deal Britain back to the Stone Age. They can’t keep getting away with it.RedDave2 wrote:Yeah but, if labout oppose... what then? They cant re-negotiate can they?
We are in December. Its this deal or no deal - that is still the default come 1st Jan 2021 isnt it?
Or, more accurately, they can and they will.
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The issue is our system isn't fit for these external deadline driven votes.
The reality is this won't be a vote for or against the deal it is a vote for deal or no deal. The large Tory majority does favour Labour here though as they can abstain and still be confident it will go through.
The line will be "we cannot back this deal because x,y,z however we cannot risk a disastrous no deal scenario by voting it down".
Then go after Bohnson for leaving it so late and denying parliament a proper reading and vote on it.
That is what it is all about though. That is why we are 48 hours away from the deadline with no deal decided. If Bohnson got his homework in early there would be time for corrections. -
RedDave2 wrote:Yeah but, if labout oppose... what then? They cant re-negotiate can they?
We are in December. Its this deal or no deal - that is still the default come 1st Jan 2021 isnt it?
I dont believe there will be any time for negotiating. I believe this needs to be agreed and written to he voted on by the EU member states on December 23rd.
Additionally I doubt there would be any hunger to do so from the Tories. If Labour vote this deal down it can very easily be spun into an endorsement of no deal and suddenly all that goes with it is put on Labour. -
They’ll abstain. They shouldn’t but they will. There are no good Brexit options but that’s the one that’s the least risky so Starmer will go for it.
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They definitely should because anything else is political suicide and potentially hugely damaging to the nation.
The Brexit war is well and truly lost. Let the Tories own it. -
They either vote for it and share the blame. Vote it down and shoulder all the blame for a no deal catastrophe, or abstain and blame the tories for whatever comes. -
They can’t win with any choice but abstaining on whether or not to plunge the country into the relegation tier of advanced economies isn’t a decision that’s going to age well.
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So should they vote for or against?
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Assuming the deal is as thin and damaging as it’s rumoured to be, they should vote against. It’s either in Britain’s interests or it isn’t, and not because it’s this or no deal. That’s the choice of the government to make it that. The ‘no deal’ dichotomy is a Tory invention. Vote for this or we’ll do something even worse isn’t something they should be letting the Tories get away with.
It’s January. There’s queues at the border, businesses can’t export, everything’s a shit show. Labour didn’t have a position on whether they wanted this or not. -
They’ll probably stagger a lot of changes anyway to avoid the overnight cliff edge. Muddy the waters. Mix up the economic damage with a bit of COVID and a dash of Brussels beaurocracy. Labour will abstain and both parties will try and leave this far behind them. The elephant in the room for the next decade.
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It's simple for me. "We'll support the deal you called and won an election on."
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The people won't give two shits about Labour taking the politcal high ground and voting the deal down when the supermarket shelves are empty. Meanwhile Bohson is sat there smug getting what he wants AND pinning it on Labour.
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It won’t work. He’s got the 80 seat majority. He made the promises. He set the timeframe. It’s his fuck up.
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I agree abstaining is the low-profile, less immediate blame option though. It’s just not in Labour’s long-term interests to wave the deal through. They’ll get no thanks and more of the blame in the long-term.
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There isnt really a win scenario for Labour in this, that much I think we can agree on.
This was lost in June 2016 and made worse December 2019. -
Fwiw I think may made it much worse when she got article 50 running before she’d even found any ducks to get into a row
Johnson is a direct consequence of that hubris -
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Funkstain wrote:Fwiw I think may made it much worse when she got article 50 running before she’d even found any ducks to get into a row
Johnson is a direct consequence of that hubris
Fair.
Likewise losing a majority in an election and enlisting the DUP thus rendering NI unresolvable.
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