BioShock Infinite
  • Ok - ending aside - which moment in the game really stuck with you?

    For me it had to be when you're on the beach looking for Elizabeth: its an absolutely stunning area and the detail is incredible - it's just a shame that you can't have deeper interactions with the NPCs.
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    Spoiler:
  • danclarke wrote:
    Ok - ending aside - which moment in the game really stuck with you?

    For me it had to be when you're on the beach looking for Elizabeth: its an absolutely stunning area and the detail is incredible - it's just a shame that you can't have deeper interactions with the NPCs.

    That moment of tranquility amongst chaos...perfect. Very well juxtaposed (juxtapositioned?).
    I'm falling apart to songs about hips and hearts...
  • Monument Island and the escape afterwards. Songbird's music is my favourite piece in the game.
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    The bit where I turned the Xbox off to go to bed, vowing never to play it again because I'm a miserable old bastard who apparently doesn't like videogames anymore.

    :(
  • I'm going to start a 1999 play through in the next couple of days. It'll be interesting! Only died a couple of times on Normal and that was through being reckless. Less money and ammo is a big challenge, especially as I'll go for the not buying stuff from Dollar Bill too.
    I'm falling apart to songs about hips and hearts...
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    This isn't the spoiler happy thread, fyi.
  • The whole beach scene was definitely a highlight, unfortunately for me it went spiralled downhill from then onwards all the way to the ending.

    I watched a commentary video last night where they show Elizabeths AI in that scene, where she interacts with parts of the scenery and she's always in your line of sight without becoming obtrusive. It was pretty impressive and you get the feeling they really took their time on that beach scene.
  • I finished this last night.  I loved the storyline, I loved columbia... I was bored real fast of the generic gunplay and lack luster vigors.  There was a lot more variety to the way you played in the original, this one felt a bit dumbed down for the masses, rinse and repeat enemies... difficulty gained only by adding more enemy NPC's than the last scene etc.  It's a shame, really. 

    Also I found my immersion broken by Booker himself babbling on like a cock-end to Elizabeth (who is constantly throwing shit to you when you're trying to use the damn X button to do something else).  The way he chatted didn't match either my play style, or the choices I made throughout the game.

    I loved the ending though.
    XBOX: Kurt Russel
    PS3: Air_Hair_Lair
  • This has probably been covered elsewhere, but no doubt I missed it. Is there a greater variety of NPC's/enemies in the PC version? I've seen publicity shots of different Handymen, but, the ones I encountered on PS3 all looked the same.
  • Nope, all the same. PC has HD textures but same assets, consoles throttling expressions AGAIN.

    Critical backlash against this is now claiming any who liked it is an idiot. This irks me.
  • It would appear that I'm an idiot then. I loved it.
  • The bioshock 1 combat was not that good. You had a few kinds of splicers, bombs, shoot and spider and big daddies. The plasmids were fun but the main ones had functionally equivalent weapons.
  • Skondo wrote:
    It would appear that I'm an idiot then. I loved it.

    theres There's a lot that's not in the game that was shown as being in the game.
  • My current picks of the post-match are here, also here.
  • One criticism I see popping up frequently is that Columbia is a museum/theme park but that same criticism is withheld from rapture. As far as I can tell the difference is that in rapture the poeple are already dead.
  • Also this rant:

    The reason this game gives me such an intense feeling of trembling discomfort, of panic, is that I know the kinds of ripple effects a chunk of gold that heavy can produce. Bioshock Infinite is still bobbing around on Valve's own ripples. "Game" "design" is a nomadic, aimless band of zombies shuffling through a desert, and every few years they see a bright spectacle illuminate the sky, and that becomes their north star, and they mindlessly trudge towards it for another half-dozen years, oblivious to the fact that they're not in a desert at all, but a huge, lush rainforest of a million lifeforms, ripe for harvest. So there, you got some wet metaphors, you got some dry ones, that's a paragraph. 

    Massive media products create entire industries. Avatar made 3-D film (and performance capture). Grindhouse reinvented the grittyexploihorror genre for people too young to know what film grain is, other than that filter in iMovie. Independence Day set the template for a decade's worth of disastertrash. 

    The difference is that film has been around since before filmmakers' parents could criticize them for liking it, so it doesn't have this obsequious need for cultural significance, it isn't kept awake at night, staring at its popcorn ceiling, committing to one day absolve itself of its repressed daddy issues. 

    When Michael Bay burns the entire GDP of Italy making Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (perhaps the most surreal board room fever dream since Space Jam), a film about dieties made of purchaseable products teaming up with the U.S. Military for a battle in the Middle East, and red white and blue robots expounding the merits of freedom -- the most perfect expression of America I've ever seen (die, Levine) -- it becomes a film critic field day. No one in their right mind would be caught dead defending it, even as it rakes in aircraft hangars worth of hundred-dollar bills. Release the same content, with the same production value, as a QTE-laden videogame? The games press will define it as The New Benchmark. Film critics at least have the capacity (though it was touch and go there for a month) to discuss Zero Dark Thirty as the CIA-cross-partnered piece of propaganda that it is (even though it's Serious, and has a Strong Female Lead), while game critics have had their backs against the wall ever since Doom was blamed for Columbine, and could never bring themselves to admit that, just maybe, Modern Warfare is raising an entire generation of authoritarian, state-serving Muslim killers, never mind the implications that Modern Warfare has practically defined The Modern Videogame, not only through content but design. 

    Things get a lot weirder, though, in that rare intersection of big budget and cultural compassion, the topic where the Avatar and Infinite comparison is most apt. We are perhaps one of only a handful of generations who will ever experience the psychotic society that allows us to contribute to curing cancer by saving the lids of yogurt containers: the disease of late capitalism percolates the brains of ostensibly intelligent humans, with liberal arts degrees and at least a few humanities courses tucked under their belts, and dooms them see the act of helping the world only through the lens of restoring economic stability (i.e. profit). Tomb Raider's Charity Site GatheringCourage.com could just donate $10,000 to Feeding America(tm), but in order to do that, they need your help to share your stories of courage. Why? I don't know. Is there some cultural Courage economy in play? Has the zeitgeist of Sharing actually made the leap from asking for 1 million Likes to unlock a trailer to feeding human beings? There has been an increasing push, with Kickstarter, et al, to evolve Vote With Your Dollar to Donate to a Corporation as An Act of Expression And/Or Conscience, and eighteen-year-olds with jobs and free rent have to spend that money on something, so we might as well pass that corporate collection plate. Trust us, some skeletal African toddler somewhere is probably gonna get some Plumpy'nut out of this. (My favorite was when all the proceeds for tickets to the Call of Duty Convention went to Supporting The Troops.) 

    So Avatar is a $500 million dollar Ferngully. You've probably seen it by now. It explores such politely liberal themes as, "Maybe militarism is bad," and "Maybe the natives are more in-tune to life than us Westerners," and "Trees," though at the same time, the only way for those themes to achieve resonance is for the white man, buried under geologic layers of implicit white guilt, to go through a transformative process in which he not only joins the natives, but, obviously, because he's superior, becomes their leader. And beds the blue cat Pocahontus. This is the discourse to which a $500 million film can contribute to the topics of race, colonialism, ecology, et al. Critics slapped four stars on it, sure, more as a polite applause for How Many Sweatshop Graphics Artists Can You Cram into a Volkswagon kind of gesture; it was narratively punching its weight for a graphics buffet, yeah, hits all those Joseph Campbell bullet points, check, check. No one was sitting there at The Motion Picture Event of the Year thinking, this is going to change the industry/world/human race. 

    And I'm not saying anything you don't already know. I drag Avatar's hackneyed blue corpse out only to compare its reaction to that of Ken Levine II: Art Harder. 

    I just want to start by saying there is a 40-minute Giant Bomb interview with Ken Levine that you should only watch if you own plastic silverware. The most amazing moment of this interview is when journoblimp Jeff Gerstmann says, "It doesn't seem like it was very focus tested," and Levine responds (let me paraphrase), "Well, with themes like racism, how could it be?!" 

    My body spasmed, my hand clenched my 1800DPI mouse as it drew what would be Exhibit A of the evidence of my would-be seizure in the MS Paint program I had been using in an adjacent window. I actually shouted out loud, in my commuhostel filled with post-docs (one neurobiologist, two legal psychologists specializing in juror decision making), "WHAT FUCKING WORLD ARE YOU LIVING IN, LEVINE?!" And then I remembered that he lives in Boston, at which point I blacked out. When I came to, they were talking about the HBO show "Girls." 

    Bioshock Infinite's contribution to the the topic of American Exceptionalism are billboards with the Founding Fathers standing upon dirty browns, with captions in ornate fonts, saying, "WE MUST DEFEND AGAINST THE FOREIGN HORDES." It is a world in which a pasttime is throwing baseballs at niggers. It is not a funhouse mirror of jingodimensia. That already existed, and it was called the Tea Party. Bioshock Infinite is a parody of a parody. It's Ron Paul in Toontown, whacking people over the head with mallets that make bald eagles fly around their skulls. 

    "But it is also a videogame" -- the most surreal line ever uttered by a videogame reviewer. 

    That's right, in between the Pirates of the Caribbean "Move Forward And See Money Being Spent In Realtime" sequences (unless you put the controller down, and time becomes less real as the fires and alarms and panic will drone on for eternity), there are enemies to shoot! One of the types of fodder enemies are Klansmen, which seems so obvious that I suspect an enemy designer did a Google search for "Racist People" and started modeling from there (though, hey, Earthbound had one). 

    There's also a George Washington mech with a machine gun. How, exactly, am I supposed to react to this. Am I supposed to see it and grin and feel fuzzy like when I those combined animals with names that tickle my pun gland in MOTHER 3? Am I supposed say, oh, Levine, you so cray-cray? Am I supposed to cheer his irreverence for Our Most Cherished Political Icon? Am I supposed to be taking any of this seriously? Because other people are. This game has a 96 Metacritic rating, with proclaimations that it is "daring" and "challenging," and "demonstrates the true power of this medium to engage and inspire us." 

    And that is what scares me. Grown adults dumping heaps of adulation upon it, young adults dumping heaps of cash, championing this as some progressive masterpiece, who probably have never even heard of A People's History of the United States. "An FPS with Themes" will reign at E3 2014, "An FPS with A Female Servant" will be back in vogue. And all the while nobody notices the new goalpost is the same as the old goalpost: Featurecreeped Doom. Now with Meaning(tm)! 

    I mean, it's pretty. The sheer production value honestly makes me jealous, though, hey, you get what you pay for. There's gorgeous rim-lighting and pastels and festive balloons. I would've enjoyed this asset tour in 2006, after playing Gears of War. At the same time, though, I here I am, walking around in the Norman Rockwellverse, reminding myself that my grandmother would probably enjoy this place without irony, thinking about how many movies have won Best Costume Design Oscars by default because of old-timeyness, and there that forebrain goes again, nagging that bright and clean visuals are an obvious metaphor for the purity of the white race (Levine, you GENIUS). 

    EarthBound's world was an idealized America that never existed, and that game was made by the Japanese. Baseball bats and suburbs and hamburgers and daycares and flea markets and hospitals and taxis and bicycles and circuses. 

    Bioshock Infinite's Columbia is a place made by an American game designer who once upon a time read a Miyamoto quote about a drawer full of playgrounds, and thus would go on to make Racist Disneyland. 

    Then there's Elizabeth, which demands its own article. Its own fucking encyclopedia. 

    Final Score: 

    Lincoln + Beauty and the Beast + Inception
  • Tempy wrote:
    Nope, all the same. PC has HD textures but same assets, consoles throttling expressions AGAIN. Critical backlash against this is now claiming any who liked it is an idiot. This irks me.

    I don't think that's the case. I am critical of the game but all in all the experience was really good. It had some of the best story telling in the shooter genre. I am going to play though again on 1999 as I imagine that will change up my gun hoe style of gameplay I adopted first time through, and maybe I'll enjoy the games mechanics better that way.
    XBOX: Kurt Russel
    PS3: Air_Hair_Lair
  • I didn't say it was your criticism, but in other channels the criticism is actively targeting fans of the game.

    Fact is, Infinite hashed some of its themes, like racism, but how frequently does it ever get tackled in gaming, let alone $200 million blockbuster budget gaming? A mallet hitting you on the head is the start, that people are so critical is simply because it has something to say in the first place.

    Also the whole 'ugh, it's a shooter' thing is tired. When you get to the end if you can't see why the over the top violence was a boon to the character development of Booker, and consequently the entire setting of the game, then you might have massively missed the point of the plot.
  • Think I'm nearly ready to start my '99 run. Game gives me this haunting feeling that I need to go back. It's not your average shooter, and all the better for it.
  • Tempy wrote:
    I didn't say it was your criticism, but in other channels the criticism is actively targeting fans of the game. Fact is, Infinite hashed some of its themes, like racism, but how frequently does it ever get tackled in gaming, let alone $200 million blockbuster budget gaming? A mallet hitting you on the head is the start, that people are so critical is simply because it has something to say in the first place. Also the whole 'ugh, it's a shooter' thing is tired. When you get to the end if you can't see why the over the top violence was a boon to the character development of Booker, and consequently the entire setting of the game, then you might have massively missed the point of the plot.

    Sorry I didn't mean it to sound as I was offended I was assuming you meant general criticism :)

    I am not against it being a shooter either, but I do think the way it it a constant never ending stream of drones attacking without the suspense of the original Bioshock.

    I felt for and feared in equal measures the denizens of Rapture, the mindless slaves of columbia I didn't.  I could hear people talking about the contant misery of the Handyman, but I never felt sorry for him... I didn't feel anything, I just gunned him down in the fastest tidiest way I possibly could.  When I saw my first big daddy I felt fear, intrigue and caution whenever they were present.

    The same goes for the Splicers vs Columbian residents... I would hear splicers upset about what a mess they've become, babbling away to themselves until they got wind I was near by.  In columbia its a little like being yelled at by a yob in a park before locating and then dispatching them.

    I think that's my only real disappointment, my lack of feeling for any of the characters I met.
    XBOX: Kurt Russel
    PS3: Air_Hair_Lair
  • Tempy wrote:
    Also the whole 'ugh, it's a shooter' thing is tired. When you get to the end if you can't see why the over the top violence was a boon to the character development of Booker, and consequently the entire setting of the game, then you might have massively missed the point of the plot.

    I can't say I agree with this - it's only tired because enough people have said it but I think it's valid. I very much doubt this game would have been greenlit had it been a different genre that didn't have the potential to sell into someone that plays nothing but FPS.

    I'm not stupid and I know that there was a reason for the violence - but my issue isn't with the violence, my issue is that I really don't think this game needed to be an FPS in order to tell its story.

  • It could've been just a steampunky idiot Painkiller too. Problem here is the having and eating of cake, not realising that you can't just 'enlighten' an idiot shootygame, you have to rethink the game you're making. Irrational were too ambitious, or had no option but to obey market dictation, which currently still means shootygame. In any sense, they're just not good writers.
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    I miss the days you could play a game then not worry about every minute design or story decision.


    I like the Idle Thumbs guys I'd be happy if they didn't feel the need to over analyse everything.
  • It's less of a choice than a compulsion, I assure thee.
  • @danclarke It certainly doesn't work within it's genre constraints to deconstruct the system or anything, but it was always going to be an FPS and to get 'oh I wish you could walk around' whims seems to be avoiding the fact that it was sold, from day one, as an FPS. Not Dear Esther in Columbia; awas man with gun/powerfist in shooty carnage.

    And I like shooting people in games, and the feedback is exceptional in Bioshock and you have plenty of options to shoot people and I also like options nearly as much as I like the wanton carnage that said options allow me to create. You can argue that 'it didn't need to be a shooter' but if it wasn't, it wouldn't be 'shock. It'd be something else. They're part and parcel, Levine makes FPS games, he likes the genre. I still don't know what is expected here, no one is being missold anything and the criticisms read like that's a major issue with it.

    ---

    As for 'not good writers' well, that's a thing isn't it. Who in the field of games is better? (genuine ask here) and our criteria for this are so wildly different @Brooks that I'll never be able to align my sights with yours. When asked earlier in the year what film/media made you cry, you suggested none as you can see the strings. Well, I often can too, but it doesn't stop me when the mood takes, nor can I ever by as immensely critical to, well, everything that you are. That's no insult, it means you generally recommend some top-tier goods, but I just don't have that level within me, for better or worse. Plus I appreciate the strings being there, in the same way you know a magic trick has a gimmick, so does storytelling. Knowing that, and being able to blank it from your mind and enjoy the skill involved in delivering the gimmick is more fun than saying "well the effect is great but I knew how it was going to happen thus the patter is defunct" that school of thought will never be one I can find a home in.

    ---

    That something like Infinite exists and is attracting such positive/negative criticism is surely a good thingTM for the industry, because at least an attempt to create a world has been so in depth as to attract that much dialogue about it. That anyone things a definitive consensus has been reached either way speaks volumes about the writing space around games, as films are constantly re-evaluated within their life times, yet with in GamesMedia the definitive seems to be required within a week, and that then becomes cannon, and immune to re-appraisal forever and ever, god rest our souls.

    ---

    As an absolute irreverent aside this is the first game outside of Pokemon and Portal/2 that my girlfriend has played, and she loves it.
  • Portal was a better piece of fiction. Fuck it, even HL2 was, just about.

    There's a good few in the homebrew/indie space too, but again the crucial thing is they don't also have to be multi-multi-million dolla megatitles too. That position comes with some major conditions, as we've seen. A Bioshock is not free to practice restraint in some categories.
  • Half Life 2 is an oddity in a lot of ways, Portal had the luck to be a curio in a bigger box, and didn't have the pressure of sales agaisnt it, also Valve appear to be immune to that kind of stuff anyway. irrational could probably have bet a more risky game than they did with Infinite, but suits are dumb, dumber than Levine at any rate, whatever you think.

    A lot of stuff I've read that's negative also seems to be based on the great promises made by developers in Interview/E3. When are people going to learn to take these things with huge hunks of salt? Games dev is clearly more fluid than film making, you don't promise something in a film trailer and then say "shit, it was too ambitious and we didn't have enough resources or space on disk to make the living Columbia we wanted"

    It's a dumb thing that needs to stop on both sides of the fence. This April Batman announce for October release is the best window, make sure the thing is near finished before you pimp it or else you get people wanting stuff you end up unable to deliver for technical, not aesthetic reasons.
  • I think irrational did try to make the risky game and failed miserably with timings. What was it? 5 years?

    Specifically:
    Spoiler:

    Elizabeths powers being basically functional item drops rather than horse resurrection and train bringing and weather control.

    And a lot of other stuff I haven't seen I suspect.

    There was a drastic pare back of ambition at the 12 months ago stage but not in relation to the plot but in the game and world that clothe it.

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