IanHamlett wrote:

djchump wrote:

I do lol at the idea that any Kippers are wanting Britain First etc. because "hey, if we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate better trade deals, because international trade deals really are the most pressing concern in my life".

Most of the polls put it as an even split stay/go with people from the far left and the far right on each side. Not just UKIP & Britain first.

I like this straw person you've made though, but if I'm honest, I don't their views would stand up to very much scrutiny.

Wanting decisions that effect you to be taken by people that are more accountable to you is not necessarily motivated by a passion for international trade deals. Same as the people pressing for devolution to Welsh & Scottish parliaments.

Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.

Wut?

monkey wrote:

Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.

Without knowing who these people are I can't say, but people re-using arguments they heard on the radio to justify an emotional position is common.

If they're leading with an economic argument then you've got the bulk of economists & fundamentals of economics on your side. No need to resort so secret motives.

Yossarian wrote:

I'm overstating the case a bit, but the Queen clearly has influence over policy-making, why else would she have a weekly meeting with the PM?

She has a weekly meeting and Charles had those spider letters, and that's way too much, but it's not writing policy and handing it to MPs for approval. But none of this is really an argument for the EU unless there are Brexiters campaigning on the lack of democracy in the EU Commission while supporting the Queen and fighting House of Lords reform.

I know it was just for lulz but you know what I'm like.

IanHamlett wrote:

Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.

Without knowing who these people are I can't say, but people re-using arguments they heard on the radio to justify an emotional position is common. If they're leading with an economic argument then you've got the bulk of economists & fundamentals of economics on your side. No need to resort so secret motives.

Strange to take issue with Chump implying that then. Not sure about the 'bulk of economists' favouring a post-Brexit trade negotiation strategy.

monkey wrote:

IanHamlett wrote:

Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.

Without knowing who these people are I can't say, but people re-using arguments they heard on the radio to justify an emotional position is common. If they're leading with an economic argument then you've got the bulk of economists & fundamentals of economics on your side. No need to resort so secret motives.

Strange to take issue with Chump implying that then. Not sure about the 'bulk of economists' favouring a post-Brexit trade negotiation strategy.

The bulk of economists say leaving will hurt the economy.

djchump wrote:

IanHamlett wrote:

djchump wrote:

I do lol at the idea that any Kippers are wanting Britain First etc. because "hey, if we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate better trade deals, because international trade deals really are the most pressing concern in my life".

Most of the polls put it as an even split stay/go with people from the far left and the far right on each side. Not just UKIP & Britain first. I like this straw person you've made though, but if I'm honest, I don't their views would stand up to very much scrutiny. ...

Dude, you're so eager to grind your agendas and score internet points that you're not even bothering to read peoples' posts properly. This ain't twitter.

Sorry, I thought you were characterising the leave campaign as Kippers & Britain First, rather than actually talking about UKIP.

@Ham: duh doy, I only, like, wrote it in there as a clue for you Sherlock.

The bulk of economists represent a sweet bell curve of opinion around the square root of fuck all.

monkey wrote:

The bulk of economists haven't got a clue what point it is you think you're making.

I'm saying that if someone is arguing to leave EU to improve the UK economy, you should be able to defeat that argument without having to pretend you can read their mind and uncover some secret racist motive.

I can't. Economic modelling is horribly inaccurate. I wouldn't want to rely on it for any argument, my level of knowledge is woeful. But I would laugh at another layperson who didn't have my scruples using an "economic argument" to cover an emotional motivation. Just confess to the truth, whatever the real reason for you feeling antiEU is.

Most likely truth? Don't like foreigners. What do you reckon Ian, what's the most likely reason there are so many Britons looking to vote leave despite the apparent exonomic near consensus? A better trade deal? More democracy that they usually never participate in?

Idgi don't all these old racists really enjoy the utter ease of pissing off to Spain to get toasted every summer? Why would they jeopardise this.

But they can retire in Spain and put the struggling Spanish health service under pressure by refusing to learn any Spanish.

Funkstain wrote:

I can't. Economic modelling is horribly inaccurate. I wouldn't want to rely on it for any argument, my level of knowledge is woeful. But I would laugh at another layperson who didn't have my scruples using an "economic argument" to cover an emotional motivation. Just confess to the truth, whatever the real reason for you feeling antiEU is. Most likely truth? Don't like foreigners. What do you reckon Ian, what's the most likely reason there are so many Britons looking to vote leave despite the apparent exonomic near consensus? A better trade deal? More democracy that they usually never participate in?

What would be the real reason for wanting to stay? Surely it can't be economics, those clowns don't know what they're talking about. Surely there's a real, secret, reason that's common to most of the stay campaign.

I don't know what the secret motives of millions of brexiters, I outlined a few commonly given ones. Who knows, maybe those people are telling the truth. Even the ones using bad arguments could honestly mean them.

If they're just sham arguments to cover for their racism, it shouldn't be too hard to pull them apart.