Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

mistercrayon

I think it's pretty presumptive and potentially class snobbish to say that the ones that go over and live in spain are the ones that don't want immigrants just because of...what?

GooberTheHat

I wasn't saying that, I was just making a joke.

Lord_Griff

It didn't translate particularly well

IanHamlett

Yossarian wrote:

monkey wrote:

I'm pretty sure you won't find anyone here saying anything different. People aren't wrong about something simply by virtue of being racist. The racism makes them choose wrong answers but that's not really related to the incorrectness of those arguments.

I approve of this post.

I also agree with the words in that post, but it doesn't really follow on from what I was talking about. Racists will want to brick up the chunnel, they will probably also avoid saying "i hate darkies" in their reasoning (interestingly, I did hear someone say she wanted to leave because she doesn't like foreigners, but I think she's more concerned about British fisheries), but that doesn't mean everyone that wants to leave the EU shares that same motive.

tin_robot

Meanwhile vote leave have been so busy fighting with themselves, they forgot to register the obvious web address.

http://www.voteleave.co.uk/

IanHamlett

10/10

Funkstain

IanHamlett wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

I can't. Economic modelling is horribly inaccurate. I wouldn't want to rely on it for any argument, my level of knowledge is woeful. But I would laugh at another layperson who didn't have my scruples using an "economic argument" to cover an emotional motivation. Just confess to the truth, whatever the real reason for you feeling antiEU is. Most likely truth? Don't like foreigners. What do you reckon Ian, what's the most likely reason there are so many Britons looking to vote leave despite the apparent exonomic near consensus? A better trade deal? More democracy that they usually never participate in?

What would be the real reason for wanting to stay? Surely it can't be economics, those clowns don't know what they're talking about. Surely there's a real, secret, reason that's common to most of the stay campaign.

I don't know what the secret motives of millions of brexiters, I outlined a few commonly given ones. Who knows, maybe those people are telling the truth. Even the ones using bad arguments could honestly mean them.

If they're just sham arguments to cover for their racism, it shouldn't be too hard to pull them apart.

i believe the reasons to stay are easier to articulate without resorting to false economies. But I would say that wouldn't I.

I've argued already against the reasonable reasons to exit so maybe we could talk about that for a while?

mistercrayon

tin_robot wrote:

Meanwhile vote leave have been so busy fighting with themselves, they forgot to register the obvious web address. http://www.voteleave.co.uk/

THE ADVERTS RUIN THE PUNCHLINE

IanHamlett

Funkstain wrote:

I can't. Economic modelling is horribly inaccurate. I wouldn't want to rely on it for any argument, my level of knowledge is woeful. But I would laugh at another layperson who didn't have my scruples using an "economic argument" to cover an emotional motivation. Just confess to the truth, whatever the real reason for you feeling antiEU is. Most likely truth? Don't like foreigners. What do you reckon Ian, what's the most likely reason there are so many Britons looking to vote leave despite the apparent exonomic near consensus? A better trade deal? More democracy that they usually never participate in?

What would be the real reason for wanting to stay? Surely it can't be economics, those clowns don't know what they're talking about. Surely there's a real, secret, reason that's common to most of the stay campaign. I don't know what the secret motives of millions of brexiters, I outlined a few commonly given ones. Who knows, maybe those people are telling the truth. Even the ones using bad arguments could honestly mean them. If they're just sham arguments to cover for their racism, it shouldn't be too hard to pull them apart.

i believe the reasons to stay are easier to articulate without resorting to false economies. But I would say that wouldn't I. I've argued already against the reasonable reasons to exit so maybe we could talk about that for a while?

I'm all for some of that, but it was only a page ago that you were assuming there is a secret reason common to many brexit voters and it is most likely to be xenophobia.

What I'm saying is we can debate the benefits and disadvantages without that and I think we should.

Funkstain

Well I started with that. And then I asked you what you really believed the real reasons for millions of non-economists and non-participating democratists would have for leaving the EU, because I hoped you give me a non disingenuous answer (because you do have an opinion on that, and I doubted it was "they all really believe in more accountable democracy"), and I asked that because you were defending these millions for not being a little bit xenophobic and that was interesting.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm giving my opinion: many of the people wanting to vote out do so because they are xenophobic. What do you reckon?

And if not interested in answering because it's all supposition, then what about my arguments against your posited reasonable arguments?

Funkstain

Sorry being needlessly antagonistic. Difficult day at work and taking it out on this thread. Just being a dick.

IanHamlett

Funkstain wrote:

Well I started with that. And then I asked you what you really believed the real reasons for millions of non-economists and non-participating democratists would have for leaving the EU, because I hoped you give me a non disingenuous answer

I believe the stated reason that any individual gives me unless I have reason to believe they are lying. My last answer, the disingenuous one, was an attempt to show the flaw in assuming there's a secret reason for voting one way, by showing how ridiculous it is to ask it of the vote stay crowd.

Funkstain wrote:

I'm not making assumptions. I'm giving my opinion: many of the people wanting to vote out do so because they are xenophobic. What do you reckon? And if not interested in answering because it's all supposition, then what about my arguments against your posited reasonable arguments?

I agree with most of your reasonable arguments to stay. I'll be voting to stay.

IanHamlett

Funkstain wrote:

Sorry being needlessly antagonistic. Difficult day at work and taking it out on this thread. Just being a dick.

No apologies necessary. I never thought you were being dickish.

monkey

The Stay crowd don't really need to be secret as there's not really any social opprobrium if you admit to being a peace-loving, outward looking, optimistic and collaborative citizen of the world.

Racism, on the other hand, is something people would be secret about. So the comparison isn't really a great one.

Yossarian

I also approve of this post.

IanHamlett

There are some on the right that think people calling for open borders just hate their own country and want to see it fail. That probably isn't something someone would be too open about if it was true. So peace-loving, outward looking, optimistic and collaborative vs racism aren't the only ways to look at this.

mistercrayon

IanHamlett wrote:

There are some on the right that think people calling for open borders just hate their own country and want to see it fail. That probably isn't something someone would be too open about if it was true. So peace-loving, outward looking, optimistic and collaborative vs racism aren't the only ways to look at this.

I don't hes saying it's the only dichotomy but it does reek of smug leftism.

Brooks

You're not sane if you don't hate "your country" a bit. Most are stuck where they are regardless.

IanHamlett

It might seem bonkers to be arguing for the validity of a position that I don't hold but, aside from being a generic free-speech supporter, I've been on a few right-wing sites and they have got their shit together. The left's over reliance on accusing people of racism only amuses them now.

Brooks

I can understand the spasms of dread that international cosmopolitanism inflicts on some ill-prepared and culturally isolated people but I'd be a fucking mug to politically accommodate those impulses.

mistercrayon

But it is somewhat rational/ conditioned to protect what one has (call it 200 years of capitalist nonsense and brainwashing if you want) and it is perfectly easy to see why any perturbation to a perceived status quo puts the willies up people. It's also the reason nostalgia industries are so fucking hot hot hot and why google et al tighten the noose on what you see so it makes you feel comfortable.

Yossarian

IanHamlett wrote:

There are some on the right that think people calling for open borders just hate their own country and want to see it fail. That probably isn't something someone would be too open about if it was true. So peace-loving, outward looking, optimistic and collaborative vs racism aren't the only ways to look at this.

There isn't a large, very recent history of country haters openly trying to bring down the country on a daily basis with state-sanctioned support until such time that attitudes shifted and attempting to bring down the country became seen as taboo, though.

Yossarian

IanHamlett wrote:

It might seem bonkers to be arguing for the validity of a position that I don't hold but, aside from being a generic free-speech supporter, I've been on a few right-wing sites and they have got their shit together. The left's over reliance on accusing people of racism only amuses them now.

I do not recognise this left to which you refer, nor this right for that matter.

mistercrayon

The problem with left wing politics is that a) its logical and b) a large chunk of it will tell everyone how logical it is. The blind spot is that no one wants to be harangued and a quiet majority keeps voting for rightish govts.

Yossarian

Because they're racist.

mistercrayon

also for all it's rhetoric for solidarity, its so often based on intellectual wankery that finding two people on the left to agree is notoriously difficult.

Brooks

How often exactly?

Yossarian

The right has been much better at presenting a united front, that's true, but I wonder whether that's an immutable fact or whether it's due to circumstances. Certainly, in the States it's the right that's currently tearing itself apart, meanwhile at the last election here there were sounds from the Greens and the Scots and Welsh nationalists about a coalition of the left.

I hope that thing will change on this front.

GooberTheHat

Brooks wrote:

How often exactly?

Enough to be notorious.

monkey

mistercrayon wrote:

IanHamlett wrote:

There are some on the right that think people calling for open borders just hate their own country and want to see it fail. That probably isn't something someone would be too open about if it was true. So peace-loving, outward looking, optimistic and collaborative vs racism aren't the only ways to look at this.

I don't hes saying it's the only dichotomy but it does reek of smug leftism.

Yeah it was sort of tongue in cheek. My views on this are more nuanced than the past few pages might lead someone to believe. Racism is a sliding scale with (I like to think) only a small number being at the spiteful, skin colour hating end. Racism is a provocative catch all term for degrees of insularity, exposure to and acceptance of other cultures and so on. Everyone has elements of these going on.

But these things are factors in the referendum. And people care about this stuff way more than trade negotiations and export tariffs.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories