Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.IanHamlett wrote:Most of the polls put it as an even split stay/go with people from the far left and the far right on each side. Not just UKIP & Britain first.djchump wrote:I do lol at the idea that any Kippers are wanting Britain First etc. because "hey, if we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate better trade deals, because international trade deals really are the most pressing concern in my life".
I like this straw person you've made though, but if I'm honest, I don't their views would stand up to very much scrutiny.
Wanting decisions that effect you to be taken by people that are more accountable to you is not necessarily motivated by a passion for international trade deals. Same as the people pressing for devolution to Welsh & Scottish parliaments.
IanHamlett wrote:Like the Queen, but with the ability to write policy.
Without knowing who these people are I can't say, but people re-using arguments they heard on the radio to justify an emotional position is common.monkey wrote:Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.
IanHamlett wrote:Like the Queen, but with the ability to write policy.
She has a weekly meeting and Charles had those spider letters, and that's way too much, but it's not writing policy and handing it to MPs for approval. But none of this is really an argument for the EU unless there are Brexiters campaigning on the lack of democracy in the EU Commission while supporting the Queen and fighting House of Lords reform.Yossarian wrote:I'm overstating the case a bit, but the Queen clearly has influence over policy-making, why else would she have a weekly meeting with the PM?
Strange to take issue with Chump implying that then. Not sure about the 'bulk of economists' favouring a post-Brexit trade negotiation strategy.IanHamlett wrote:Without knowing who these people are I can't say, but people re-using arguments they heard on the radio to justify an emotional position is common. If they're leading with an economic argument then you've got the bulk of economists & fundamentals of economics on your side. No need to resort so secret motives.Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.
Dude, you're so eager to grind your agendas and score internet points that you're not even bothering to read peoples' posts properly. This ain't twitter.IanHamlett wrote:Most of the polls put it as an even split stay/go with people from the far left and the far right on each side. Not just UKIP & Britain first. I like this straw person you've made though, but if I'm honest, I don't their views would stand up to very much scrutiny. ...djchump wrote:I do lol at the idea that any Kippers are wanting Britain First etc. because "hey, if we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate better trade deals, because international trade deals really are the most pressing concern in my life".
The bulk of economists say leaving will hurt the economy.monkey wrote:Strange to take issue with Chump implying that then. Not sure about the 'bulk of economists' favouring a post-Brexit trade negotiation strategy.IanHamlett wrote:Without knowing who these people are I can't say, but people re-using arguments they heard on the radio to justify an emotional position is common. If they're leading with an economic argument then you've got the bulk of economists & fundamentals of economics on your side. No need to resort so secret motives.Right but when they go on about trade deals that's nothing to do with democratic accountability, that's to do with trade deals, or rather it isn't and it's really some other grievance being masked.
Sorry, I thought you were characterising the leave campaign as Kippers & Britain First, rather than actually talking about UKIP.djchump wrote:Dude, you're so eager to grind your agendas and score internet points that you're not even bothering to read peoples' posts properly. This ain't twitter.IanHamlett wrote:Most of the polls put it as an even split stay/go with people from the far left and the far right on each side. Not just UKIP & Britain first. I like this straw person you've made though, but if I'm honest, I don't their views would stand up to very much scrutiny. ...djchump wrote:I do lol at the idea that any Kippers are wanting Britain First etc. because "hey, if we leave the EU we will be able to negotiate better trade deals, because international trade deals really are the most pressing concern in my life".
I'm saying that if someone is arguing to leave EU to improve the UK economy, you should be able to defeat that argument without having to pretend you can read their mind and uncover some secret racist motive.monkey wrote:The bulk of economists haven't got a clue what point it is you think you're making.
I approve of this post.monkey wrote:I'm pretty sure you won't find anyone here saying anything different. People aren't wrong about something simply by virtue of being racist. The racism makes them choose wrong answers but that's not really related to the incorrectness of those arguments.
What would be the real reason for wanting to stay? Surely it can't be economics, those clowns don't know what they're talking about. Surely there's a real, secret, reason that's common to most of the stay campaign.Funkstain wrote:I can't. Economic modelling is horribly inaccurate. I wouldn't want to rely on it for any argument, my level of knowledge is woeful. But I would laugh at another layperson who didn't have my scruples using an "economic argument" to cover an emotional motivation. Just confess to the truth, whatever the real reason for you feeling antiEU is. Most likely truth? Don't like foreigners. What do you reckon Ian, what's the most likely reason there are so many Britons looking to vote leave despite the apparent exonomic near consensus? A better trade deal? More democracy that they usually never participate in?
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