Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers
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acemuzzy wrote:MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE A PRE-REFERENDUM REFERENDUM ON WHAT THE QUESTION IS!
I’ve just had a referendum on your post and the answer is no. -
acemuzzy wrote:MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE A PRE-REFERENDUM REFERENDUM ON WHAT THE QUESTION IS!
What should certainly have happened is gaining a concensus on what leaving the EU would entail before asking people if we should do it. But this wasn't a genuine referendum, like the AV one it was a calculated political move for powers sake. However, this blew up in Camerons face.
I don't know what the question should be, but given nearly half the country didn't vote to leave, it really does seem far from 'settled' that we should be leaving. -
Single transferable vote, three options:
1. Take May’s deal
2. No deal
3. Remain -
The question should be “Are you absolutely fucking sure you want to leave because, I mean Jesus Christ, take a look at the state of it ffs”.
Possible answers should be Remain and that’s it. -
Yossarian wrote:Single transferable vote, three options:
1. Take May’s deal
2. No deal
3. Remain
You wouldn’t use STV for that. AV would suffice. I mean, who wants to use an electoral system that features the Droop quota. Geeky psephologist alert.
I have no doubt if we did have a second referendum that Remain would win. But then, I was also certain Remain would win in the first place, Trump wouldn’t get elected and that Shergar would return. -
What about Lord Lucan?Gamertag: gremill -
There should totally be a 2nd ref.
Main reasons.
1.Minimised interference due to targeted ads over social media. FB and Twitter will be on a leash as will be certain leave benefactors like Bannon/Mercer and Banks/Russians. Hopefully.
Murdoch will still be there but we'll see how that goes.
2. If leaving the EU means crashing the economy of the UK, the people deserve a final say in either staying in or out. Going into Brexit blind hoping the Americans will save you afterwards out of the goodness of their hearts is just...lunacy.
3. Labour (or at least Corbyn) seems to have a plan B if Brexit proceeds. Time for him to put the cards on the table. We know he dislikes the EU and he wants out but what then? I'm not sure his strategy is viable if he even has one.Steam: Ruffnekk
Windows Live: mr of unlocking
Fightcade2: mrofunlocking -
What are the options? Accept this form of Brexit, or ask if we can stay in for a bit while we try again?
As much as I'd like a way back, I think a second referendum would be another disaster.
We've had a referendum, then a general election. Now the elected MPs need to do their fucking jobs. It would be nice if the opposition had a clue but you don't always get what you want. -
Yossarian wrote:Single transferable vote, three options:
1. Take May’s deal
2. No deal
3. Remain
Steam: Ruffnekk
Windows Live: mr of unlocking
Fightcade2: mrofunlocking -
WorKid wrote:As much as I'd like a way back, I think a second referendum would be another disaster.
Why? What could go more wrong, that would be caused by this? -
Depends. If No Deal was an option, people might actually choose it, then we’re definitely fucked. If Remain was even on the ballot, you might get a far-right surge, riots. If Remain won, it could get very nasty.
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The campaigning for the first was a shitshow that exacerbated lots of nasty racists coming out of the woodwork - 2nd time around it'd be even worse, and they'd be banging a "we won the vote! This is unfair and undemocratic!" drum.
I'm not saying that that's worse than the long economic and social shadow that brexit is going to cause to the country, but just that the "why not? what could go worse?" line seems kind of a dangerous path to tread, because it can *always* get worse. -
To expand on point 3 of my previous post: after the great Brexit crash Labour hopes to swoop in and vacuum up all the votes of disillusioned citizens to regain power. If things go Labour's way that is and the conservative right axis doesn't block it's path.
That is if the conservative alliance even allows the left any room to maneuver. They effectively know how to 'rig' (influence?) elections now having scored 2 consecutive victories in 2016. They will build on that in the future.
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Windows Live: mr of unlocking
Fightcade2: mrofunlocking -
The last four(?) Westminster-run elections in this country have been an absolute mess. Scots ref, 2015 GE, EU ref, 2017 GE. All of these have been travesties and we haven’t fixed any of the problems that have caused it.
I want whatever cancels Brexit so I think it’s worth a try. Really I want a new Labour leadership election, without Corbyn, then a GE that cancels Brexit. Then perhaps we can start sorting some of this out. That’s not going to happen though. -
You'd also need a leadership election without any current Labour MP's.
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ChopperByrne wrote:
Almost forgot about this.
The northern-irish definitely want a final say in Brexit.
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hunk wrote:ChopperByrne wrote:
Almost forgot about this.
The northern-irish definitely want a final say in Brexit.
And that's the biggest problem with Brexit. Northern Ireland wasn't even an afterthought. It was never thought about.
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It annoys me no end that the only politician murdered over this shit was one of the good guys. -
ChopperByrne wrote:hunk wrote:ChopperByrne wrote:
Almost forgot about this.
The northern-irish definitely want a final say in Brexit.
And that's the biggest problem with Brexit. Northern Ireland wasn't even an afterthought. It was never thought about.
They’ve done better over this than they might have done thanks to the DUP propping up May. If it weren’t for that, NI probably wouldn’t have even been a consideration.
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monkey wrote:Depends. If No Deal was an option, people might actually choose it, then we’re definitely fucked. If Remain was even on the ballot, you might get a far-right surge, riots. If Remain won, it could get very nasty.djchump wrote:The campaigning for the first was a shitshow that exacerbated lots of nasty racists coming out of the woodwork - 2nd time around it'd be even worse, and they'd be banging a "we won the vote! This is unfair and undemocratic!" drum.
I'm not saying that that's worse than the long economic and social shadow that brexit is going to cause to the country, but just that the "why not? what could go worse?" line seems kind of a dangerous path to tread, because it can *always* get worse.
The first part of your second paragraph is the only bit that matters. Elsewhere, both your posts boil down to, “It's difficult to tell arseholes that they’re wrong, so we’ll just let them have their way.” Which is a lazy/cowardly response, especially when the situation is this serious.
People might vote for no deal? We’re headed that way already. It’s like hurtling down a road in a car with no brakes, and worrying that the people in the car might vote to not trying the useless brake pedal again.
We might here more from the racists? A second referendum isn’t going to make anyone more racist. It might make them more vocal, we can deal with that. Not having a second referendum isn’t going to make anyone less racist, either.
I just can’t believe that a genuine reaction to potentially the greatest political disaster in our lifetime is to say, “We’d best not try to stop it, because that seems awkward.” -
It's about time someone grew a pair and said we'll stick a wall up between us and those foreigners down in Euroland. Eire I think they call themselves. Then we can brick up the Channel Tunnel and get back to ruling the waves and having our royals protected by deities.
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Just in case: I'm not serious.
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Nothing we didn’t really know in this Politico report, but it shows that the Labour leadership are still committed to trying have their cake and eat it;
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-jeremy-corbyn-is-still-half-hearted-about-europe/ -
Anyway, back to Labour and their 6 tests. There are no proposed models that meet their tests.
They've backed themselves into a corner.
Although at least they didn't carve the 6 Tests on a stone tablet. -
I always saw the 6 tests as a handy pretence for being able to vote against any deal brought back by May.
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Yes, literally any deal is bound to fail the tests. But then if they succeed somehow in gaining power and sorting their own deal, they're hoisted by their own petard.
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Andy wrote:monkey wrote:Depends. If No Deal was an option, people might actually choose it, then we’re definitely fucked. If Remain was even on the ballot, you might get a far-right surge, riots. If Remain won, it could get very nasty.djchump wrote:The campaigning for the first was a shitshow that exacerbated lots of nasty racists coming out of the woodwork - 2nd time around it'd be even worse, and they'd be banging a "we won the vote! This is unfair and undemocratic!" drum.
I'm not saying that that's worse than the long economic and social shadow that brexit is going to cause to the country, but just that the "why not? what could go worse?" line seems kind of a dangerous path to tread, because it can *always* get worse.
The first part of your second paragraph is the only bit that matters. Elsewhere, both your posts boil down to, “It's difficult to tell arseholes that they’re wrong, so we’ll just let them have their way.” Which is a lazy/cowardly response, especially when the situation is this serious.
People might vote for no deal? We’re headed that way already. It’s like hurtling down a road in a car with no brakes, and worrying that the people in the car might vote to not trying the useless brake pedal again.
We might here more from the racists? A second referendum isn’t going to make anyone more racist. It might make them more vocal, we can deal with that. Not having a second referendum isn’t going to make anyone less racist, either.
I just can’t believe that a genuine reaction to potentially the greatest political disaster in our lifetime is to say, “We’d best not try to stop it, because that seems awkward.”
If anyone had said anything like that, you might have a point. -
No deal isn't going to happen either (imo, and that's contingent on May still being PM). The Govt are talking up the possibility of it to scare people including the EU (although it's not working on them). Even the ERG seems to have abandoned it since last week, and are going for this Canada + trade deal now.
There'll be an article 50 extension ahead of a no deal.
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