Jaco wrote:

Might I recoomend completely ignoring politics and carrying on with life regardless of whatever craziness is happening in Westminster? It's not like worrying / protesting / whatever is going to change anything. And even if a new lot (of whatever hue) get in, they'll only mess things up in their own unique and self-interested way.

Much better to shrug, laugh at the silliness of it all and just live your life. I've managed to go more than 40 years with absolutely no interest in or knowledge of politics and I'm fine.

Apathy’s appealing, but it won’t change anything, and a disinterested, unconcerned populace merely allows the cunts in charge to get away with even more. Having us all too beaten down and demoralised to even complain about the shit that’s forced upon us is the ideal situation for those in charge. “Look at this, these morons will accept anything, let’s ramp it up a notch.”

Also, seeing May flounder and the Tories tear themselves apart is hugely entertaining (and satisfying). Just saying ‘nothing good will ever happen’ virtually guarantees that nothing will.

I don’t really know how anyone could watch the last ten years of public vandalism against some of societies most vulnerable, our public services, the utter disgrace of the consequences of a private financial crisis being dumped onto the state, meaning the poor, the disabled and the innocent pay the costs incurred by chinless yuppie cunts with their venal greed, and simply be “meh” about it. (Not a personal attack on you btw, do what you want really). It’s just, I could understand apathy and disinterest during the long afternoon nap of Nu Labour but not now, when there’s a one way class war being fought and one side hasn’t even been informed they’re in a battle (and being pummelled).

Things can change, post-crash the current economic and political systems are the walking dead, zombie ideologies only hanging on because no one had the will or courage to finish them off and move on. Neoliberalism or whatever you want to call it can be clearly seen to have failed miserably, it’s merely waiting for someone to come along and bash it brains in, it’s shambling corpse is still limping on, but it’s surely only a matter of time before we collectively pick up the shovel and bring it crashing down...

Maybe. I’d rather think positive.

Frosty wrote:

Might I recoomend completely ignoring politics and carrying on with life regardless of whatever craziness is happening in Westminster? It's not like worrying / protesting / whatever is going to change anything. And even if a new lot (of whatever hue) get in, they'll only mess things up in their own unique and self-interested way. Much better to shrug, laugh at the silliness of it all and just live your life. I've managed to go more than 40 years with absolutely no interest in or knowledge of politics and I'm fine.

Try telling someone with a disibility who's benefits and support structures are being systematically destroyed that they should just ignore politics. Or EU citizens, or minorities, or the poor. People who's day to day lives are fundamentally affected by these absolute cunts. I've no problem with you choosing not to engage but, fuck me, don't proudly present it as if you've just solved a really tricky wordsearch. Not everyone is as lucky. I do have that luxury in that I could potentially ride this out and be mostly fine but I'm not unaware that things could change drastically for me if this goes badly. I know you're not entirely serious but you absolutely got me hook line and sinker.

I get the frustration. My wife is disabled and has been for 20 years. Believe me, I understand.

What I'm saying is that history tells us it will NEVER change. Politicians aren't (purely) the problem. People are. People with power will always (always) end up seeking the best for them and their chums and stuff everyone else. Absolute power, and all that. None of us would be any different if we were in the same position, even if we'd like to think we would be.

All we can do is support and help one another as best we can and look after ourselves. Politics is a mug's game, and one that's doomed to failure.

EDIT: Apologies if I come off blasé. I know this, and other issues, affect people massively. My wife's family were caught up in the Windrush nonsense, for instance. I do understand. But it will not get better. It will not change. It will only get worse. Which is why I don't engage – I just help whoever I can, whenever and whereever I can. To be honest, I'm not sure why I'm even in here – I'm completely neutral when it comes to politics. Curiousity as to how folk are feeling, I guess. Anyway, as I said, apologies if I came off as taking the results lightly.

I hate to say it Jaco but you are soooo wrong. Democracy and politics is nothing without the participation of the public. In fact it demands public participation to work effectively.

I'm with Frosty, Larry and JonB on this one. If there ever was a time to hit the streets and make your voice heard, that time is NOW!

Unlikely wrote:

Jaco wrote:

People with power will always (always) end up seeking the best for them and their chums and stuff everyone else. Absolute power, and all that. None of us would be any different if we were in the same position, even if we'd like to think we would be.

I really don't think that's true, Jim.

I'm sure the majority of the current crop of politicians (across the world) thought they'd be virtuous and good and defenders of the common man and all that. Thousands of years of human history tells us we're just not cut out to lead one another without bad things happening. IMO etc.

Jaco wrote:

Might I recoomend completely ignoring politics and carrying on with life regardless of whatever craziness is happening in Westminster? It's not like worrying / protesting / whatever is going to change anything. And even if a new lot (of whatever hue) get in, they'll only mess things up in their own unique and self-interested way. Much better to shrug, laugh at the silliness of it all and just live your life. I've managed to go more than 40 years with absolutely no interest in or knowledge of politics and I'm fine.

Quite right!  Politics has no effect on our lives.  Carry on people!

Yeah but we can always strive to do better. We did it with Civil Rights, we're doing it for LGBTQ+ people now. We will continue to get better, but only if people believe that change can happen.

Just because the current crop are shit doesn't mean we'll always be shit. Constantly belittling millennial or the younger generation as the devil in youth's clothing does them a huge disservice too.

SpaceGazelle wrote:

If not mankind then who?

I'm not going there.

Nice try though.

hunk wrote:

Jaco wrote:

Mankind will not, cannot, provide true justice for all people. It simply can't happen. Every system, every governement, every attempt at control / leadership / ruling has failed ignominiously. We are incapable (as a species) of ruling ourselves. There will always be those too self-interested to buy-in. And for a truly just system to work, you'd need complete buy-in from everyone. It will never happen.

If the above is true we'd still live in feudal times.

I'm not sure what makes you think we don't. It just wears a shiny new suit now.

Jaco wrote:

Mankind will not, cannot, provide true justice for all people. It simply can't happen. Every system, every governement, every attempt at control / leadership / ruling has failed ignominiously. We are incapable (as a species) of ruling ourselves. There will always be those too self-interested to buy-in. And for a truly just system to work, you'd need complete buy-in from everyone. It will never happen.

Quite right!  Politics has never improved anything!  No point in trying!  Carry on!

Jaco wrote:

And for a truly just system to work, you'd need complete buy-in from everyone. It will never happen.

I read a bloody brilliant sci-fi novel on this very subject recently. It’s dazzling.

Gnomon, by Nick Harkaway

Thoroughly and wholeheartedly recommended. It imagines a near-future UK (mostly London, but meh) where an AI-enabled total surveillance state has been implemented, complemented by voluntary citizen-based voting on every issue and decision facing the state. Imagine a jury composed of the entire population, voting on every level of issue from foreign policy down to sentencing of a single criminal. Obviously, the perfect system isn’t perfect and the book is about how it breaks and who catches it being broken. Like all good sci-fi, that story tells us a lot about how our current world works and why.

Jaco wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

Giving up on something because you’ll never achieve perfection means giving up on everything.

It's not about perfection. It's about capability. We simply can't do it. If I thought we could, I'd get engaged. But I firmly believe, with all my heart, that it's simply impossible for us to rule ourselves capably and provide an equitable world. We may as well try and change the laws of motion and gravity. We're hard-wired to not be able to do this. That's the conclusion I've come to after a heck of a lot of study and thinking, and it's a hill I'll die on.

I’m pretty sure that our current society does loads of things that we would have considered ourselves incapable of doing 500, 1,000, 10,000 years ago, and things have certainly improved in at least some ways in our lifetimes.

But w/e, if you feel like this, that’s fair enough, but it does leave me a little confused as to why you’re even in this thread.

Yossarian wrote:

But w/e, if you feel like this, that’s fair enough, but it does leave me a little confused as to why you’re even in this thread.

Morbid curiousity at how everyone was feeling during this whole nightmare. I may not engage with politics, but I do care how you lot feel (believe it or not).

Anyhoo, probably best I leave this thread for everyone's sake. Sorry for chucking my thoughts in here, chaps. Carry on.

The problem is Jim thinks everything will be sorted out when we're dead. That's not a dig, but a fact. Obviously, this can have consequences when it comes to motivation.

Jaco wrote:

Unlikely wrote:

Jaco wrote:

People with power will always (always) end up seeking the best for them and their chums and stuff everyone else. Absolute power, and all that. None of us would be any different if we were in the same position, even if we'd like to think we would be.

I really don't think that's true, Jim.

I'm sure the majority of the current crop of politicians (across the world) thought they'd be virtuous and good and defenders of the common man and all that. Thousands of years of human history tells us we're just not cut out to lead one another without bad things happening. IMO etc.

Nah, what we've got at the moment is a whole crop of Eton-born-and-bred-for-power types - effectively a set of aristocratic rulers in all but name. Eton/Westminster/Old Money Boarding School Oxbridge Bullingdon Club blah blah. 

It's not that politics/power corrupts 100%, it's more that the corrupt seek power, and that a class of wealth-owners can afford to send their progeny to elite schools to be educated into the Old Boys Network of power. These people have never struggled to make rent, or been affected by many of the things they are directly in control of, and lack the imagination or inclination to empathise with the people they claim to represent. They don't do the big shop, they don't know the price of milk, yet they're in charge.

Defender of the common man is clearly not the intent for many Tories. Defender of the entrenched power structures, Defender of the Corporation, sure, but "commoners"/plebs are way down their list for defending. NHS itself is way high on their list for destruction, which says it all really.