Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers - The Bear and Badger

monkey

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/the-cheer-on-question-time-that-will-terrify-corbyns-labour/
The vid in this link shows Question Time from the other day. Just watching this clip doesn't give the impact of the cheer for a no deal when Oakeshott suggests it. By this point in the program, all the other options had been gone through and got almost no response, polite applause or outright booing. Then this hack pops up saying burn it all down and they go nuts.

The rest of the article is paywalled but its the Spectator so it's probably for the best that no one reads it.

LivDiv

There was a show on BBC a couple of years ago where a family spent a week living in a different decade each episode. They should do a no deal special.

Saturday
The family wake up to the news that the government failed to find a deal.
Their pensions and savings are now worthless and the pound has plummeted.
A trip into town to sell Mum's family jewelry.

Sunday
Church to pray for a better future.
Dad and son stay home to help the neighbours pack. They came over from Germany 30 years ago but now have to move back.
Son cries as he waves goodbye to his best friend.

Monday
Time to use that pawn money to go shopping. The supermarket shelves are empty. The only thing left is tins of potatoes, this will be every meal for the rest of the week.

Tuesday
The family dog dies. There were no licensed vets available because their credentials are no longer valid.

Wednesday
The family try to escape on holiday, only to find all airports closed.

Thursday
They decide on a staycation, They spend the next 24 hours lost with no working satnav.

Friday
Blown up by terrorists that were known to the EU but sharing of intelligence has ended.

Yossarian

Re: QT

I do feel like we could be reading a bit too much into the reaction of a single audience on a single night, which isn’t to say that there isn’t an appetite for no deal amongst some parts of the U.K, but this cheer is only one data point.

Roujin

The sad thing about Pop's post is that is not hard to imagine that these are the possible outcomes for the country under no deal of you sit and think about how the country functions.

It is truly telling of just how bad the little england mindset is because there appear to be quite a lot of people who don't even have a passing understanding of what our place in the world is in relation to other EU countries and indeed the rest of the globe. There appear to be a sizable group of people who think the UK is somehow the same as it was during our ascendancy after the industrial revolution but that we're somehow shackled by Europe and our own shit politicians and that we can just return to that kind of prominence "if we take back control".

This country has absolutely failed on multiple generational levels to educate is people about how the world works and now we're going to reap the ignorance that's been sown.

I_R

Yossarian wrote:

Re: QT I do feel like we could be reading a bit too much into the reaction of a single audience on a single night, which isn’t to say that there isn’t an appetite for no deal amongst some parts of the U.K, but this cheer is only one data point.

Yeah, it's not like this is a broad cross section of locals, it's an invited audience. The last time it was from here the audience was packed with Perthshire tories.

poprock

RamSteelwood wrote:

Cheers Pop, for the info, and the nightmare fuel!

Among the many things I didn’t even mention are worker’s rights. Most of the employment rights we take for granted are guaranteed by the EU. In the medium to long term, we could expect those to be stripped from us by the Tory government one by one. Probably until we all end up on zero hours contracts with no redress when an employer decides to fuck us over. Didn’t get paid last month? Tough. didn’t get to take any holidays this year? Tough. Got fired because you arrived late after a bus crash? Tough.

This will all be pushed through by the government under the excuse of “all banding together to get through this tough time”. It will be branded ‘patriotic’ to suffer.

Following that up, we already know the Tories would like to repeal the European Human Rights Act. Without the EU to stop them, you can bet your bottom dollar that’s going to happen. “What has the Human Rights Act ever done for me?” I hear you ask. Well, it protects your right to a fair trial. It protects you from being sold into slavery. It protects your freedom of religion and your freedom of speech. It protects you from intrusive surveillance. It protects you from discrimination. It prevents the state from taking ownership of your possessions. It guarantees fair elections. It protects children’s right to an education.

monkey

Yossarian wrote:

Re: QT

I do feel like we could be reading a bit too much into the reaction of a single audience on a single night, which isn’t to say that there isn’t an appetite for no deal amongst some parts of the U.K, but this cheer is only one data point.

Yeah I agree. These things are hellishly regional and that wouldn’t be happening in a London edition of QT. But it was Derby which is normal-ish. Like 60% leave or something which is normal for non-metropolitan areas. If it was Boston, I’d be happy to ignore it.

Scary though. Getting a bunch of people in a room and the winning vote goes to blowing up the country. That’s not right wherever it happens.

Roujin

I fully expect for us to just become another state of the US after brexit and everything is privatised, US corpofucks invited to tender on providing services and being enticed by the govt having to change workers rights to make putting any money into this shithole the least bit appealing for employers.

monkey

Roujin wrote:

I fully expect for us to just become another state of the US after brexit and everything is privatised, US corpofucks invited to tender on providing services and being enticed by the govt having to change workers rights to make putting any money into this shithole the least bit appealing for employers.

Yup. We’ll be desperate for cash and Trump’s America will be the only place willing to do a quickie trade deal / asset strip.

[Deleted User]

poprock wrote:

Following that up, we already know the Tories would like to repeal the European Human Rights Act. Without the EU to stop them, you can bet your bottom dollar that’s going to happen. “What has the Human Rights Act ever done for me?” I hear you ask. Well, it protects your right to a fair trial. It protects you from being sold into slavery. It protects your freedom of religion and your freedom of speech. It protects you from intrusive surveillance. It protects you from discrimination. It prevents the state from taking ownership of your possessions. It guarantees fair elections. It protects children’s right to an education.

They can try to repeal the Human Rights Act, but we’ll still be bound by ECHR.

poprock

monkey wrote:

Scary though. Getting a bunch of people in a room and the winning vote goes to blowing up the country. That’s not right wherever it happens.

There’s a piece here by Anand Menon, the MP who was facing that audience.

He does at least say that it wasn’t quite as nightmare-inducing as you would think from that one moment. There was context.

Menon wrote:

… contrary to my worst fears, when I tried, nervously, to explain all of this to the audience in Derby, they didn’t heckle. They didn’t shout me down. They paid attention. Some caricature leavers as a bunch of ignorant oiks waiting to drown out arguments they don’t like; that’s certainly not a view I have any time for.

dynamiteReady

Wait...

Rumours of Theresa May mopping up support, with a harder Brexit!!?

That would make sense to her, politically (lurch further to the right),
but this is hellish...

Diluted Dante

Harder how? Presumebly the only thing would be dropping the backstop, which then blows up the deal with the EU.

Yossarian

There are basically rumours about everything at the moment because she’s painted herself into a corner and is desperately casting around for a way out.

hunk

Pop's worst case scenario is definitely a possibility. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. The UK becoming a vassal state to US-Russian megacorps post Brexit is 100% certain due to privatisation. This is where the Brexiteer money came from after all. It wasn't a 'gift', they see it as an investment and want to see a return in due time.

Brexit doesn't come for free. The UK will pay the price afterwards with interest.

poprock

Andy wrote:

They can try to repeal the Human Rights Act, but we’ll still be bound by ECHR.

Yes. But if I understand it right, the ECHR only covers around a third of the fundamental rights which the EU currently hold us to. And without the EU covering us, our Parliament are free to start changing what we agree to and what we don’t.

Basically, right now if our Parliament tried to chip away at any rights then the EU charter of fundamental rights takes precedence and we ignore Parliament’s attempts. In future, without that, our Parliament can enact local UK laws that run counter to the European Court of Human Rights. The UK Gov will be able to undermine our human rights at will.

And to give context: The Tories don’t believe in the importance of human rights because they often run counter to the rights of corporations and businesses. As a belief system, the Tory party think that businesses will look after the people because ultimately it’s in the interest of business to have living breathing workers. Hence there is no need for the state to help anyone.

poprock

Of course, because what I (and others) have posted today is negative, it’s all just Project Fear and we can safely ignore it because ‘yay Britain’.

For fuck’s sake.

hunk

poprock wrote:

Of course, because what I (and others) have posted today is negative, it’s all just Project Fear and we can safely ignore it because ‘yay Britain’.

For fuck’s sake.

Some call it project fear, I call it 'extrapolation' and exploring likely scenarios. The truth is the forum has been surprisingly accurate at that despite our humble origins.

RamSteelwood

poprock wrote:

Of course, because what I (and others) have posted today is negative, it’s all just Project Fear and we can safely ignore it because ‘yay Britain’. For fuck’s sake.

Yeah. It's why i was looking for definite 'fact' type things around no deal, info like you put together, because arguments around 'race to the bottom' for rights and stuff are too easy to dismiss as project fear, and obviously no one is going to promise that's what is going to happen, or do it on the day of brexit.
But if the EU basically enforce certain 'minimum standards', and people want to remove those by leaving, it's not hard to extrapolate the outcome from removing them.

dynamiteReady

Diluted Dante wrote:

Harder how? Presumebly the only thing would be dropping the backstop, which then blows up the deal with the EU.

That's the same rumour I've read, yes.
That seems hard enough to me, tbh.

The backstop gives hope.

RamSteelwood

Harder Brexit deal: Rich people, and members of the government, will be allowed to move to Europe and get full EU citizenship. Everyone left behind is fucked.

Yossarian

I heard she wants to try and create some bilateral deal with Ireland over the border, which falls over at the point that you realise that the E.U. deals with border issues on Ireland’s behalf. Ireland couldn’t do a deal over the border if it wanted to.

LivDiv

Appealing to the hard brexiteers wont get her over the line will it?
She need needs 116 MPs to change their minds. The ERG make up about 80 iirc.

118 Tories voted against her but a fair few are remainers or second refers.

poprock

Do people (esp. hardcore leave supporters) just not see that fucking with the Irish border in any way at all leads directly to civil unrest, military intervention, domestic terrorism, and lots of people dying? Have they all forgotten what it was like to hear regular news reports of IRA bombs in western/northwestern England? Did they even fucking notice the bombing in Londonderry over the weekend?

Diluted Dante

poprock wrote:

Do people (esp. hardcore leave supporters) just not see that fucking with the Irish border in any way at all leads directly to civil unrest, military intervention, domestic terrorism, and lots of people dying? Have they all forgotten what it was like to hear regular news reports of IRA bombs in western/northwestern England? Did they even fucking notice the bombing in Londonderry over the weekend?

They don't think it's really an issue at all.. Some like Johnson call it an imaginary problem.

LivDiv

It is crazy. These are the people who warn of terrorists coming in through Turkey when we potential have our own grown ones right here and they are willing to fan the flames.
Proof if ever the terrorists from Turkey argument is a thinly veiled form of racism.
Terror threats are fine as long as it is white people.

poprock

You’d think Johnson et al would at least remember the bombing of the Tory party conference, wouldn’t you?

Diluted Dante

I don't think something that happened in 1984 is of much consequence to Johnson, as it didn't directly involve him.

Yossarian

Here’s a thing, May is running out of MPs that she can give cabinet positions to.

https://twitter.com/addadc/status/1087280731506860032

[Deleted User]

poprock wrote:

In future, without that, our Parliament can enact local UK laws that run counter to the European Court of Human Rights. The UK Gov will be able to undermine our human rights at will.

I don’t see how. We will still be a member of the Council of Europe. That’s what binds us to the European Convention of Human Rights.

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