Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers
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It’s not an island. It’s a peninsula of the Spanish mainland. If Cornwall was populated by Spaniards, I’ve got a good idea what the Brexit Massive would be saying about it right now.Funkstain wrote:Spain being so weird about an island full of people who don’t want to be part of Spain: shitty
Apart from it being attached to them and previously owned by them?LivDiv wrote:Spain have no legitimate claim to it...
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If I was Gib I'd be begging for EU rule."Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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Spain havent owned Gibraltar for 300 years and being attached to a country is not a legitimate claim ffs.
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It's all bollocks at the end of the day. -
LivDiv wrote:Spain havent owned Gibraltar for 300 years and being attached to a country is not a legitimate claim ffs.
Unless I've missed something that's my understanding of it so fuck off Spain.
GooberTheHat wrote:It's all bollocks at the end of the day.
True
SFV - reddave360 -
GooberTheHat wrote:It's all bollocks at the end of the day.
Well yes, but at some point arguments need to be grounded.
I mean you're right, but if it's a thing Trump could get away with saying at a rape trial we should probably steer clear."Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob -
Funkstain wrote:I reckon it’s important to recognise that if a treaty makes it so hard to leave that, effectively, it’s a prison (maybe pleasant, maybe even for the best, but still a prison), that is not a good thing.
The EU could and should show here that, despite significant dismay at the uk leaving, it is possible to leave in a orderly manner - putting people’s lives into the negotiations is not orderly, it’s bullying. Spain can get to fuck but yes entirely politically predictable, but the EU should be better than this I think.
And yet still Johnson and Gove and Cummings and Cameron and Farage are the shit monsters, the geysers of shit who seem to gorge on their own effluence.
Agreed 100%.
SpaceGazelle wrote:If I was Gib I'd be begging for EU rule.
Beggars belief. -
LivDiv wrote:Spain havent owned Gibraltar for 300 years and being attached to a country is not a legitimate claim ffs.
Greece haven’t owned the Elgin Marbles for over 200 years, but it’s pretty universally acknowledged that they’ve got a solid claim to them.
And while general attachment isn’t necessarily legitimate (like, say, Germany and the Sudetenland) I’d argue that Gibraltar is more clearly part of Spain than literally anywhere else. Show a map to an alien and ask them which country it’s in. They certainly won’t say this one. -
No one lives on the Elgin Marbles.
What the fuck are you on about with aliens.
I am talking about people, human beings living their lives and giving them the power to decide their fate.
The people of Gibraltar should decide the fate of Gibraltar. Not carvings or fucking aliens.
Edit: removed personal insult -
I agree with you on this one, Div. And I also think wider issues of sovereignty here are by-the-by. The question is whether this is a suitable thing to do as a prerequisite for good faith trade talks.
However, can we please not call each other morons or get personal? I don’t want this descending into a shitshow. -
Diluted Dante wrote:
Because you've jumped to Spain is going to starve Gibraltar and we haven't?Am I going mad? Why can no one else explicitly call this out as a dick move? Do you all hate the UK gov and the brexit vote so much that you couldn’t possibly say that maybe they’re not to blame for something? That maybe the EU is acting really shitty, if this turns out to be true?
So, Spain won't let Gib be at a table in sovereignty negotiations.
Spain refuses to recognise any referendum result in Gib (which, to be fair, is the same position as the UN)
Spain won't allow Gib to go indy and rejoin the EU as a separate nation.
Spain won't allow Gib to be part of any UK/EU trade deal
Spain won't let Gib negotiate it's own EU trade deal
The EU now seem to support all the above positions.
Which part is not tantamount to blockading and starving Gib again?
What is the way the UK could "solve" the above issue without committing to be in the EU forever and ever?
If the argument is that actually we should stay in the EU forever, how is being in the EU not tantamount to staying in an abusive relationship?
And who gives a fuck whose fault it is?
How is this ok?
Why is the EU onboard with this?
Why couldn't they support Spanish claims to sovereignty but make the argument that using that issue to blackmail Gibraltar before trade talks begin is not ok?
Spain blockaded Gib from the late 60s to the early 80s and it was brutal on Gibraltar. This is not some wild fantasy. This is recent history. It's no "jump". -
I mean a blockade under Franco's dictatorship, which was ended by the first democratically elected Government is hardly a reliable guide to what will happen in the 2020s.
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Do I expect Gibraltar's population to be starving on the streets? No. But is this holding a population of people for ransom during bloody trade negotiations? Yes.
It’s shitty, there’s no way around this. Arguing exactly how shitty it is, and who’s to blame more, and why it’s not as shitty as literally blockading then so that’s ok then, is a bullshit waste of everyone’s time and a sink on their morality. As usual, situations can be more than one thing: the EU can be shitty as well as the UK government. Unfortunately I don’t see an easy way out of their position unless they are bluffing in early talks. I would hate to be a gibraltan right now and I hope they receive the support due to them from our govt, despite my doubts over its moral capacity.
Also of interest is the EU proxies’ recent statements over Scottish membership of the EU post hypothetical independence. Cautiously positive I’d say? Which makes things interesting -
Couple of things I have learned from old articles this morning.
As far back as early 2017, this issue was being flagged in Irish papers (so probably others in the UK) Spains outline from back then as it is now was that as soon as the UK left the EU, the EU was legally obligated to move from a position of neutral negotiator between 2 members to a negotiator on behalf of Spain vs a Third Country (in this case, the UK)
Gibraltar also seems to want a bit of a cake and eat it approach. They like the access to Spain that the EU membership brought along with the 10,000 Spanish workers but doesnt want to accept co-rule by Spain after the UK left. Not saying they are wrong to mis-trust Spain but if you are going to leave the club etc. etc.
So from my limited view point, Spains overall approach is a bit shitty and the UK is shits for not sorting this out before it left (but like much of Brexit, it spent the last 3 years arguing with itself instead of actually trying to sort out upcoming problems) but I think the EU is somewhat stuck here. The whole point of paying your member fees is that the EU will back you when needed. I dont think this is a case of the EU using this as a bargaining chip.
Its a shitty situation all round.SFV - reddave360 -
I would argue the UK did sort it.
It is a British territory under UK rule, as such it will leave the EU with the rest of the UK by default and all that entails.
If Spain werent happy with that why did they sign the Withdrawal Agreement? This is not a trade issue. -
The guardian article begins "The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels."
Sounds like a trade issue to me. Maybe as cover, but still an attempted means to an end.
I'm happy to move more towards "Spain are being shits", and it does seem that way as I read more. But that doesn't alleviate the UKs failing here, IMO. I don't view it as the EU being an abusive relationship, I view it as the EU being a safe haven & shit ain't so nice outside. That's the harsh reality of the situation, and I don't see why they need to dress that up.
But yup, I echo sympathy for those caught in the middle. A shitshow indeed. -
Just wait til we need to start making trade deals with the South American bloc and eyeballs turn to the Falklands.
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Reading the rest of the Guardian article it is pretty clear it is nothing to do with trade.
Trade is just the name of the knife being prodded into our soft under belly. -
LivDiv wrote:Reading the rest of the Guardian article it is pretty clear it is nothing to do with trade.
Trade is just the name of the knife being prodded into our soft under belly.
Which we willingly rolled over and exposed, while growling loudly (but wearing a muzzle).
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acemuzzy wrote:I don't view it as the EU being an abusive relationship, I view it as the EU being a safe haven & shit ain't so nice outside. That's the harsh reality of the situation, and I don't see why they need to dress that up.
Read that back. This is an active choice by the EU, and reads like the actions of a vindictive ex showing their former lover they never should have left. It’s the definition of an abusive relationship and it’s sad to see people so willing to defend it. -
Leave me and I’ll take the house, the kids, I’ll harass your friends and family and make their lives hell unless they choose me over you. This is not me being vindictive. Im not being abusive. I’m just showing you life ain’t so good outside. Why do I need to dress that up? You left me, this is YOUR fault.
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Sure, but not the people of Gibraltar.GooberTheHat wrote:
Which we willingly rolled over and exposed, while growling loudly (but wearing a muzzle).LivDiv wrote:Reading the rest of the Guardian article it is pretty clear it is nothing to do with trade. Trade is just the name of the knife being prodded into our soft under belly.
The EU and Spain should be better than this regardless of how shit England are (England not UK). -
Sony are like an abusive partner. I stopped my PSN sub and they keep showing me the new monthly games i could have had but they won't give then to me. It's their choice not to. Bastards.
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Spoiler:
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acemuzzy wrote:Sony are like an abusive partner. I stopped my PSN sub and they keep showing me the new monthly games i could have had but they won't give then to me. It's their choice not to. Bastards.
You know what, I give up. I don’t wanna get personal with this and asked others not to, but I’ll be honest - the above is just the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on this forum. Fuck me. -
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LivDiv wrote:No one lives on the Elgin Marbles.
What the fuck are you on about with aliens.
I am talking about people, human beings living their lives and giving them the power to decide their fate.
The people of Gibraltar should decide the fate of Gibraltar. Not carvings or fucking aliens.
Edit: removed personal insult
I’m not claiming that anyone lives on the Elgin Marbles. I’m just highlighting that your argument about how long it is since somebody owned something is meaningless.
My point about aliens is to highlight the ludicrousness of Britain’s claim to it, ever.
Yes, the people who live there want to be governed by Britain, but there’s an argument that none of them should be there in the first place.
I wouldn’t be happy about it if I lived there, and it’s clear that you’ve got a strong emotional attachment to one side of the argument. -
Minnesänger wrote:acemuzzy wrote:Sony are like an abusive partner. I stopped my PSN sub and they keep showing me the new monthly games i could have had but they won't give then to me. It's their choice not to. Bastards.
You know what, I give up. I don’t wanna get personal with this and asked others not to, but I’ll be honest - the above is just the dumbest shit I’ve ever read on this forum. Fuck me.
I mean it was meant to be dumb. To indicate that you can't just take something which has a parallel with an abusive relationship and say "It’s the definition of an abusive relationship". Cos that would be nonsense, obviously.
But anyway, I give up too. It's my birthday and I've got better things to do that this x -
Happy birthday Muzzy!
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