Brexit: Boris' Big Belgian Bangers
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SpaceGazelle wrote:Just wait until the access for financial services stuff kicks off.
Financial services, tax, fishing rights - I can deal with the EU playing hardball there. It makes sense.
But this is not OK. -
What can the EU do, if its 26 member states all say the same thing? If Spain are threatening to starve people, that's obviously not ok, but is that really what happening here? What I've seen is Spain making its case as ever, there's no longer a dissenting voice inside, so that becomes the EU's stance. Unclear what'll actually happen, and I agree caution is needed in terms of what happens next, but your stance feels more extreme than what I've read (though tbh that isn't much yet, so you may be right!!) -
I also think the UK government are rather more guilty of not having shit like this sewn up already. They are the ones deserving of ire. I have no pride of colonial outposts like Gibraltar, but do have sympathy for it's residents, but by fuck have the government just steamrolled stuff through and they bear the ultimate responsibility of where that leads.
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The UK have offered dual-ownership, with the condition that the Gib gov sits at the table. Spanish rule was offered in the first ref, while dual rule was also offered at the second.
Let me explain this clearly, Spain will ONLY negotiate about the future of Gibraltar if Gibraltar is excluded from those talks.
Which makes shit like this...
acemuzzy wrote:I also think the UK government are rather more guilty of not having shit like this sewn up already. They are the ones deserving of ire. I have no pride of colonial outposts like Gibraltar, but do have sympathy for it's residents, but by fuck have the government just steamrolled stuff through and they bear the ultimate responsibility of where that leads.
...absolute shite.
The UK government assumed that Gib would be part of EU trade talks as it is a UK territory. The EU are resorting to blackmail. It's designed to punish us, but also scare smaller states into not stepping out of line. The Spanish demand is that any UK-EU trade deal excludes Gib. That is a direct offer to trash their economy.
Stop handwaving. Stop excusing. And stop blaming us for the frankly awful actions of the EU Bloc. We have to own our mistakes, and yes we've done a lot wrong. But many people in parliament rightly fought against bullshit like threatening EU citizens with expulsion and No Deal. Why? Because PEOPLE ARE NOT PAWNS. -
I apologise if i'm overly passionate about this topic - one of my best and oldest friends is from Gib. His parents are like my second family, his sister is like my sister. They are ok with Spain, but love the UK, the older generation hate the Spanish.
I'll be keeping an eye on what the actual details are here, once an official statement is released by the EU. But, if they go with Spains demands to exclude Gib, then i'll never forgive them. -
But why would the UK make that assumption? It's a gross failure surely, if it's wrong? If the people of Gibraltar mattered to them, they sure have got this in the working agreement, not kicked the can down the road. But they were desperate to get it signed off and didn't want real world complexity stopping that.
And if they tried and hit up against Spain refusing to allow it in, and continued regardless, then I'm sorry this stance should not be a surprise. It feels like one of the many "project Fear" points that were kinda obvious to those who cared to look. And it won't be the last.
I get it's a fucking nightmare for those caught in the middle. I don't get putting that all on the EU. -
What could they have done, muzzy? The Spanish gov refuses to have the Gib gov at the table.
The British have offered a return to Spain, they’ve offered dual rule, but they won’t force it without Gib involvement. If your solution is solve it before going, then the UK would never, ever be able to leave.
The EU knows Gib is pro-EU, they don’t give a shit. They’re happy to use them and threaten them as a bargaining chip. You say “I don’t get putting all that on the EU” well how about putting ANY of that on the EU?
Do you agree with this course of action? Do you think it’s morally right? Are you so unhappy with leaving you’ll defend the EU for doing this? Does this make you wish people DIDN’T vote to leave?
Why are you so insistent with putting this as not the EUs fault when it’s Gib and the UK that have consistently tried to compromise on this issue? -
Am I going mad? Why can no one else explicitly call this out as a dick move?
Do you all hate the UK gov and the brexit vote so much that you couldn’t possibly say that maybe they’re not to blame for something? That maybe the EU is acting really shitty, if this turns out to be true? -
Either the situation is set up to possibly disadvantage Spain and the Andalusian economy or its set up to possibly disadvantage Britain and Gibraltar.
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Minnesänger wrote:Am I going mad? Why can no one else explicitly call this out as a dick move? Do you all hate the UK gov and the brexit vote so much that you couldn’t possibly say that maybe they’re not to blame for something? That maybe the EU is acting really shitty, if this turns out to be true?
Because you've jumped to Spain is going to starve Gibraltar and we haven't? -
Nah I agree with you.Minnesänger wrote:Am I going mad? Why can no one else explicitly call this out as a dick move? Do you all hate the UK gov and the brexit vote so much that you couldn’t possibly say that maybe they’re not to blame for something? That maybe the EU is acting really shitty, if this turns out to be true?
As I said top of the page, this should be down to the people of Gibraltar, so yeah basically saying have their gov at the table which is what the UK are suggesting and is perfectly reasonable. -
For those defending Spain it might be worth remembering the shocking way they reacted to Catalonian wanting to break away from Spain.
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Britain could have completely ignored those bilateral talks with Spain, safe in the knowledge that when it comes time to ratify the continent wide deal, Spain wouldn't be able to crash the whole EU into a no deal because of some technical issue about a border. Now Britain can't steamroller them into that situation.
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I don't think anyone has defended Spain, just said that this was entirely predictable.
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This is old news anyway I thought. Gibraltans are British citizens and the British Prime Minister agreed to give the Spanish government a veto on their new trading negotiations. This happened last year. At the same time he sold the Northern Irish down the river.
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I'll go with a swift 'Fuck Off Spain' and 'you should know better EU' on this.
Unless I'm wrong the only contentious issue on Gibraltar is that Spain is pissed they dont own it. But they dont and should accept that. The EU should definitely not be supporting this type of action. Especially as a starter to negotiations.SFV - reddave360 -
Holding the wrong end of the stick since 2009. -
Unsurprisingly poor grasp of the English language being displayed right there.
Have to say though, in all my travels working around England, Norwich was easily the number one racist hole that I visited. Genuinely awful people live there, so while it saddens me, I can't say it surprises me in the slightest.Come with g if you want to live... -
Diluted Dante wrote:I don't think anyone has defended Spain, just said that this was entirely predictable.
This, basically.
I don't know what the right answer is. If you think it's for Spain to behave nicely, and inconsistently with how they behaved before Brexit, then (a) why and (b) why not get that written down?
If you're saying "well we never would have brexited then", well yaha, my basic answer is we shouldn't have brexited. Because of a whole pile of shit like this, which Leave just ignored. If it's so irresolvable before Brexit, hurrying though with it and expecting it to suddenly get easier is just madness.
I'm sure party of my views here are driven by anger at Brexit, at the dishonesty and stupidity of it. I don't really blame the EU for representing their member states, that's its role. I don't really blame Spain for sticking up for themselves either. Happy to believe their being dicks about how exactly they're doing it, but at least they're saying it out the open. The UK side though was just so fucking avoidable. We didn't need to be here, and we only are through people covering their ears, doing their job in the most short-termist of ways, and for them to blame others gets my goat. -
It is entirely predictable Spain would act like this.
The EU should be looking for the democratic solution which is the suggestion made by the UK.
The answer "don't do the Brexit then" cannot be valid because it undermines the ability of EU nations to leave without risking losing territory.
THe morally correct thing is for the UK, Spain and Gibraltar to sit down, mediated by the EU and thrash out a solution led by the desires of Gibraltar and it should be done in a way that isn't used as leverage for other parts of other deals. THE EU immediately siding with Spain kill that dead. -
EU hiding behind the “we’re backing up a member state” excuse to add Gibraltar to the table stakes: shitty
Spain being so weird about an island full of people who don’t want to be part of Spain: shitty
The UK government knowing this would happen and letting it happen anyway because “get it done”: shitty
I mean there’s plenty of shit sticking to plenty of people in this horrid affair. But I would argue that yes, most shit still belongs on the awful scum who have perpetrated this ridiculous tragicomedy upon us. The most accurate summary of our current situation seems to be “spend billions and years to get to a place where we roughly were before referendum, with less influence for more money and significant damage to our global reputation”, it’s unforgivable government. -
LivDiv wrote:It is entirely predictable Spain would act like this. The EU should be looking for the democratic solution which is the suggestion made by the UK. The answer "don't do the Brexit then" cannot be valid because it undermines the ability of EU nations to leave without risking losing territory. THe morally correct thing is for the UK, Spain and Gibraltar to sit down, mediated by the EU and thrash out a solution led by the desires of Gibraltar and it should be done in a way that isn't used as leverage for other parts of other deals. THE EU immediately siding with Spain kill that dead.
I don't think I buy that. The UK's departure from the EU has risked it losing territory. That's just the reality of the situation.
I think that
- the same isn't true for (m)any other current EU members, in that there aren't too many other enclaves/exclaves/whatever the word is; so I disagree that this sets a global rule;
- even if it were true, well, tough shit; the EU doesn't exist to make leaving it easy;
- critically, stuff like this should have been sorted out far, far earlier than now; people have been screaming about it literally for years ffs! If you're saying this should be a rule of leaving the EU, then - while in the EU - look to get the rules changed; don't expect the problem to disappear! -
Yup, I'll go along with what Funk says too. Maybe I'm underselling the shittiness of the EU/Spain side. But gah we didn't need to be here.
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How have we risked territory?
Spain have no legitimate claim to it, if Gibraltar want independence or to join Spain then maybe but that is up to them.
Do you think it is OK for a country to claim a territory who do not wish to to be part of that country?
It should have been sorted yes, it hasn't been, that does not justify Spain or the EU making claims on land they do not own.
Again, my point is. This should be decided primarily by the people of Gibraltar Spain and the EU are blocking that. -
I reckon it’s important to recognise that if a treaty makes it so hard to leave that, effectively, it’s a prison (maybe pleasant, maybe even for the best, but still a prison), that is not a good thing.
The EU could and should show here that, despite significant dismay at the uk leaving, it is possible to leave in a orderly manner - putting people’s lives into the negotiations is not orderly, it’s bullying. Spain can get to fuck but yes entirely politically predictable, but the EU should be better than this I think.
And yet still Johnson and Gove and Cummings and Cameron and Farage are the shit monsters, the geysers of shit who seem to gorge on their own effluence. -
Important for me to point out that Spain = their government. As far as I can tell most Spanish people have bigger problems to worry about than the rock.
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We don't really need a disclaimer for that. I don't think anyone is blaming Sergio Ramos for the stand off.
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Maybe we could just go to war with Spain? Its probably the only war we could win right now. -
GooberTheHat wrote:Maybe we could just go to war with Spain? Its probably the only war we could win right now.
Except they'd bring 26 of their mates to the party
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