Okay, we'll let you embed loots.

Yossarian wrote:

That completely ignores my ‘why?’.

Screen time alone is bad for child development. Compunding that with reliance on dopamine-based reward cycles creates an addiction based on the reward being random (predictable rewards lose novelty and attractiveness).

In children, addictive behaviour has negative consequences for developing higher order skills such as self regulation, and leads to more impulsive behaviour. This negatively impacts on longer term planning for individuals. 

Furthermore, in people under 25years, the frontal lobe is still developing. This part of the brain is responsible for planning and regulates against risk taking. That's why male drivers under 25 are more often involved in car accidents. In these people, the impuslive behaviour, still-developing frontal lobe will make them more succeptible to addictive behaviour, and consequently spending money they dont have in this economy.

In terms of future development, when children who are exposed to gambling (or similar dopamine reward systems) earlier - including simulated or real gambling, there are studies that show this leads to higher incidence of gambling addiction in adulthood. You will note this article addresses your concern over definitions of what is gambling or not:

Gambling by strict definition is placing something of value (usually but not always money) at risk in the hopes of gaining something of greater value. Thus gambling in adolescents includes a spectrum of behaviors ranging from seemingly innocuous (e.g., flipping cards for “keeps”) to more problematic (e.g., sneaking into casinos to gamble).

The consequences of adult gambling addiction are, I believe, well documented and need no examples here.

Yossarian wrote:

This is all fair enough, but it doesn't actually speak to the issue at hand in any significant way. Your "dopamine-based reward cycles" describe loot from Destiny 1 before the addition of any type of micro transactions to a tee.

 

Your previous post discussed that specifically in relation to children, the same children who we do not have trouble allowing to play pre-DLC Destiny, no?

I'm probably too drunk to deal with accusations of goalpost-moving right now, TBH, I should probably pick this up in the morning. Should I be tempted to reply again, I apologise in advance if I come across as irritated.

Fair enough, I'll refrain if it annoys. But I do still feel you are shifting ground in your argument.

Game addiction is one thing, and one of those links also refers to addiction as being non-harmful in some cases (citing the lack of people complaining they "play too much golf" for instance). Destiny 1 would fall in that category - it has no loot boxes, correct? In that case it is just something enjoyable.

When money is added, in paid-for loot boxes, the exercise becomes less of the player enjoying the game, but in trying to win random things (where in addictive cases, the actual end result is irrelevant - it is the chase of novelty). When you start to ingrain those addictive behaviours in people whose brains are not yet developed enough to self regulate, you also start to form life-long habits with significant monetary (and subsequent) consequences.

It's not that controversial.

nick_md wrote:

For sure, I'm only speaking of my own experience. Rank practice is rank practice, I've never argued there aren't unsavoury systems in play, my argument is against the blanket all or nothing vitriol. It ain't going away.. maybe let's try to make it work?

Well, if it has to be there then yeah, make sure it follows some rules or something. It's clear that it's a model that aims to extract large sums of money from a small percentage of people, and for me there should be clear spending limits imposed. 

But I've no interest in it. Just playing Disc Jam earlier this year, where wins gave you points that you could spend on capsule machine for outfits, poses etc (no real money involved) and it got on my tits. Just let me choose the ones I want FFS.

So, I'll certainly be avoiding anything based on that mechanic, as well as anything where it's completely optional but gets in the way of the rest of the game. MGSV is my favourite game of the last few years, but it's slightly spoiled by having the in game economy in SP connected to the economy in the MP/online mode. Not really an issue with microtransactions, but just a way in which upgrading weapons in the main game is slowed down if you don't participate in the rest of it. The more that happens the more it'll put me off playing certain games.

On the flip side though, kids toys blind bags do incredibly well. Tsum Tsum, MLP, Lego, Hatchimals etc. Essentially the same thing, but physical, and obviously expressly aimed at kids.

And obviously proper gacha machines in Japan.

Relevant legislation.

Mayber.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41711805

Not enough Flying Black Man.

The other thing is this; minifigs are of equal value. Sure, there are some you’d prefer, and the more you buy the more risk there is of repetition, but even those are of use (I have spent relatively little time in playing with my nieces, but even I know how useful it is to have two of pretty much anything). With sticker packs, there’s less likelihood of a pack being all gots and no needs, until later on. Even then, your gots give you more chance of getting a swap with a friend. Whether it’s Lego or Panini stickers or Kinder Surprise, there’s no progression of materials, you don’t need better content the more you collect, you just need specific materials, and those can be obtained, as highlighted earlier, with swaps.

With these loot crates, there’s a fair likelihood that you’ll get things which are no longer of use to you, because you’ve passed that point.

From what I’ve seen of FUT, bronze and silver cards are very hard to sell. Nobody is interested in buying them, unless it happens to fit a specific squad building challenge. This also makes it hard to complete those challenges, as certain things just aren’t available on the transfer market; why wait indefinitely to see if something sells if you can ‘quick sell’ it. The problem there is that the amounts offered there are absolutely paltry. Plus, the game frequently ‘rewards’ you with untraceable items inferior to what you already own. Their quick sell value is zero, so they’re pretty much useless.

If there was a real ability to swap players, or a notification system for the transfer market, or a way to just buy a specific player, that would be great, but that wouldn’t fit EA’s obvious decision to make real progression very difficult without spending real money.

You can search for specific players in the transfer market. But if they’re not available there, you have to hope to get one in a pack. You can’t send an SAE to an address at the back of the game.

You normally can't if you're 8 years old.

An interesting article about FUT on the love of just opening packs from Eurogamer

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-23-when-it-comes-to-fifa-18-you-can-most-definitely-cash-out

No. We need statistical evidence.

I don’t know who enb is but the story was originally by I think Brian crescente on rolling stone