My overall feelings

It will be interesting to see how far they go with the diversity thing as they seemed to move away from that diverse Avengers thing they were doing in the comics. But then obviously in film Black Panther did amazingly and Captain Marvel seems to have performed well partly because of the female protagonist so maybe the film audience has turned out to be more receptive.

In toy shop today, and Caleb (6) is looking at some Avengers stuff. Turns to a family next to him and says "Yeah, these are from Endgame. Tony Stark dies." and then walks off. Could have killed him.

Andy wrote:

My issues with explanations such as “that’s a different Loki,” are that a) it just always sounds like an excuse to get around the inherent problems with time travel, and b) I’m pretty sure they were going out of their way to say that that’s not happening here. The one time branching timelines are explicitly spoken about, it’s immediately followed by the explanation of the workaround.

 

Ok, couple of things and then I am out of this debate. 

a) when we are talking about time travel, we are discussing a made up thing. At least for now. So its a plot device just like any film. And that's a point that End Game makes - every other film according to the logic here is wrong. They have a scene where they list off loads of films and basically say no, they're wrong. There are 3 major points the movie makes in this regard. First is the scene I have just described. Second is the discussion on killing Baby Thanos - they cant effect their own universe by changing history in this way. The third is Tonys Daughter. He expressly wont do anything that might jeopardize her existence. If they can change history with their actions, he would be out. 

b) the branching timelines - again, try to think of them as universes and it actually works out as the movie intends. Each interference the guys make is creating a new universe where a new future will happen. Banner didn't realise this until The Ancient One showed him that the taking of the stones wouldn't impact on his time line (the orange one) but it would create a new one which would become that Ancient Ones timeline (the black one) and if there is no time stone she knows Strange cant stop Dormamu.

In effect there is the following universes according to just me and despite some theories, I'm not one of the Russos so this could all be bollocks

A) 2019 - Main Universe

2014 - in this universe, Thanos left to go to the 2019 universe, so the infinity
war wont happen here.

Also within this universe the Soul Stone and is taken by Hawkeye and the Power Stone by War Machine so if Thanos stays he cant complete the Gauntlet in this timeline. If this Thanos wants to succeed he has to jump to 2019

C) 2012 - The New York Universe. In this Universe Loki takes the Space Stone so that would still be in play here but Banner takes the time stone and Ant Man gets the Mind Stone so again, no Gauntlet can be created in this universe now.

D) 1970 - This is where they get the Space Stone so that again means no Gauntlet in this universe.

E) 2013 - This is the universe Thor goes to with Rocket to get the Mind Stone. 

If Cap does go back to each exact spot he then can set these universes back on course with the exception of 2012 because he cant fix that eras Space Stone - Loki has it now. He can return the time stone though so at least Strange can save the world. Regardless, he jumps to a sixth universe where he can be with Peggy (I'm guessing its around 1943) before coming back to his original universe in 2019. 

This does raise the question of whether he has to kill himself or just live as a separate Steve Rogers in that universe. That universe could be quite different to the Main one and its possible that in that universe, Steve would meet Falcon as a much older Cap and train him. This means he would know that in 2019 he could safety pass the shield over.

As I said, I could be just making this work and that the writers don't have this as how things are. If the Cap we see at the end is the Cap who lived his whole life in the past and simply knew where to show up then it does mess the whole thing up as the past then could be changed and things should have been very different.

Saw it, enjoyed it.

Gf's 9yo son said it's the worst avengers film of the lot.

Kids eh?

Diluted Dante wrote:

We do know Falcon became Captain America in the comics right?

Does he get any kind of human+ type powers or abilities in the comics? Because a guy with a rock hard shield isn't really going to cut it. 
Even Hawkeye and Black Widow have some ability even if it isnt superhooman.

Edit
According to Wikipedia he knows judo.
And has a telepathic link with his pet bird.

Sorry, Dave, I’m not buying any of that.

Andy wrote:

Sorry, Dave, I’m not buying any of that.

Nae bother. It's only how I see it so I could have it completely wrong. But it works for me.

It is exceptional really, and I know the quality varies a bit, but I have enjoyed many of them. In fact, the first Iron Man was a big inspiration in learning motion graphics which is now a heavy part of my career. 

Definitely not the first for post end credits cutscenes though... I remember Pirates of the Caribbean (one of them at least) doing it.

Five pages. Five pages and no mention of BannerHulk being the star of the movie. Or if there was I couldn’t find it through the pedantic four and a half pages talking about the inaccuracies of time travel and the multiverse.

Watched it enjoyed all of it. Had the right mix of wrap up dialogue, action, funnies (thanks Bruce) and emotion. Only bad point was waiting for the end of credits scene to find sweet FA.

I watched the film with some friends and one of them couldn’t shake the whole time travel paradox thing but I was tearing my hair out at this criticism. To me the whole thing was about keeping the plates spinning for a finale of a 20+ film series and affording closure to each of the leaving characters. I thought it was magnificent that they created a film with warmth and heart in amongst all the potential for bullshit with it just becoming a film where they plot and scheme to a final battle.

I mean they plot and scheme to a final battle but they use it to create a vehicle in which Iron Man gets to engage with his dad as he is about to potentially die after only just becoming a father (and save his other adopted son). Hulk finally accepts his inner turmoil and becomes at peace with what he is just as Natasha leaves the scene. Captain America understands where his place in time and space is and gets to recover that which was ripped from him in fridge mode. I can’t imagine how they decided this was the arc they were going to take - certainly it’s not the obvious one in my view - and I think they deserve heaps of credit for that.

Going back to question from a while back: I think this film is basically at least partially reliant(maybe even 60-80%) on giving a shit about these characters and their relationships to each other.

Good write up Crayon. I think the emotional story is the important story. The time travel macgiffin is just that. A plot device to hold the story together.

b0r1s wrote:

Good write up Crayon. I think the emotional story is the important story. The time travel macgiffin is just that. A plot device to hold the story together.

Yeah. It’s worth remembering if point (A) is half dead people and point ( is bring everyone back the magic QUANTUM allows any route between. Reverse time, a trick a sabotage or whatever but they probably do the most convoluted one which can’t stand up to its own nonsense rules (while dissing all the other time travel films!) just to serve the important part of the story - the people.

I would put Endgame in the same bracket as Star Trek Discovery Season 2 where I wouldn't say there were plot holes as such because it's easy to think of explainations for why stuff happened, it just would have been nice to have had an additional couple of lines of expositionary dialogue to completely clarify.

They could have quite easily killed some of these discussions dead as the underlying plot isn't rotten at all and, as mentioned above, the audience shouldn't be too inclined to take it super-seriously anyway as it's all ridiculous comicbook stuff with slightly loose logic anyway.

Can someone remind me of the deal with wielding Thor's hammer? I seem to remember it not being based on pure strength, which they establish in a throwaway scene in some previous film where they're all having a shot of lifting it and are unable to, apart from Cap who manages a slight shift. That implies there's some sort of "worthiness" involved, which Thor also bangs on about, and seems to be the reason Cap can swing away in freewheeling, lighting-blasting style at the end of this. But then why is Thanos also able to wield, swing, and throw the thing around with ease? Presumably he's not "worthy", but also probably no stronger than, say, Hulk, who then also could have reasonably wielded it at any point. At least they had the good grace to go and return it alongside the stones.

The rest was fine.