Book Club
  • Raiziel
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    I wonder how much creative wiggle room a translator has when working on fiction?  I have no idea how the process works.  If they can't zhuzh up the prose, then surely they can reorder it somewhat so that it doesn't sound quite so clunky in English.  I jotted down a random paragraph from Coffee last night which goes like this:

    The talking never ends.  Fumiko was itching to go.  "Too many rules..." she muttered as she gripped the coffee cup before her.  The vessel was quite unremarkable: just a coffee cup which had not had coffee poured into it.  But she thought it felt noticeably cooler than the usual porcelain.

    Now let me take a quick stab at that:

    "Too many rules," Fumiko grumbled impatiently, and clasped her hands around the coffee cup.  It was quite unremarkable.  Just an empty white cup, though she noticed the porcelain felt unnaturally cool against the tips of her fingers.

    Am I taking too many liberties there?  It's surely less clunky than the original, right?  I don't know.  The whole thing reads very strangely, and there are other issues too, but I'll share those next month.  I managed fifty pages, and I'm afraid that's all I can really stomach.  It turns out you can return Kindle books within the first seven days, so I've taken advantage of that this morning.
    Get schwifty.
  • Nina
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    Enjoying the concept of the book, the writing doesn't really bother me. Could help that I'm not a native English speaker anyway.
    The Daddy wrote:
    The writer is fond of miniskirts.
    They're tight miniskirts and this is bothering me more tbh. He does go into details for a lot of things (like the coffee cup in Raziel's example), but not all of them add that much to the scene setting and are more distracting. Stupid skirts, distracting everyone again.


    And I'm not sure about the translation question @Raziel. Murakami has been popular enough in the West that shows that translations can work. You might be able to find something in interviews with him?

    And I actually liked this line
    "just a coffee cup which had not had coffee poured into it"
  • regmcfly
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    We, as a country and society, have built a wild pedestal upon purple prose as a benchmark of literature. There was a massive kick back against it in the 20s, it then was negated with the writers of the 60s. Again, in the 80s it hit with the write about the literal drugs, and then again in the early 09s, mad purple prose hit. It is waves.

    It'll come and go with western lit too.
  • regmcfly
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    We, as a country and society, have built a wild pedestal upon purple prose as a benchmark of literature. There was a massive kick back against it in the 20s, it then was negated with the writers of the 60s. Again, in the 80s it hit with the write about the literal drugs, and then again in the early 09s, mad purple prose hit. It is waves.

    It'll come and go with western lit too.
  • Also we seem to dig repetition!
  • regmcfly
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    Ah I see you have read David Peace
  • EvilRedEye
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    Haven't read it yet but my understanding is the Japanese original was an adaption of a play by its original writer and the non-dialogue section are particularly terse/perfunctory as a result.
    "ERE's like Mr. Muscle, he loves the things he hates"
  • Raiziel wrote:
    I wonder how much creative wiggle room a translator has when working on fiction?  I have no idea how the process works.  If they can't zhuzh up the prose, then surely they can reorder it somewhat so that it doesn't sound quite so clunky in English.  I jotted down a random paragraph from Coffee last night which goes like this: The talking never ends.  Fumiko was itching to go.  "Too many rules..." she muttered as she gripped the coffee cup before her.  The vessel was quite unremarkable: just a coffee cup which had not had coffee poured into it.  But she thought it felt noticeably cooler than the usual porcelain. Now let me take a quick stab at that: "Too many rules," Fumiko grumbled impatiently, and clasped her hands around the coffee cup.  It was quite unremarkable.  Just an empty white cup, though she noticed the porcelain felt unnaturally cool against the tips of her fingers. Am I taking too many liberties there?  It's surely less clunky than the original, right?  I don't know.  The whole thing reads very strangely, and there are other issues too, but I'll share those next month.  I managed fifty pages, and I'm afraid that's all I can really stomach.  It turns out you can return Kindle books within the first seven days, so I've taken advantage of that this morning.
    You made it worse! I'm not sure why you'd want to translate someone's writing style out of their prose and replace it with another.

    I recommend a read of Milan Kundera's Testaments Betrayed on the virtue of accurate translation (especially in regards to Kafka), and other interesting things about writing. Also The Art of the Novel.
  • Anyway, I'm going to get this and start reading over the weekend. I like a bit of bare prose so I'm looking forward to it now.
    Nina wrote:
    And I actually liked this line "just a coffee cup which had not had coffee poured into it"
    Me too. It's got a nice rhythm to it.
  • One man's clunk is another man's funk.
  • Raiziel
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    Well quite.
    Get schwifty.
  • Yes. So the last thing we should be trying to do is homogenise writing styles. Especially bringing more unorthodox styles in line with our expectations.
  • Raiziel
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    As I said, I don’t know how the translation process works, and how much leeway a translator has when working on a piece of fiction.  In my opinion Coffee is so poorly written, the dialogue so stilted, the characters so wooden, that I wondered if part of that was something to do with the translation.  But if it all sounds good to you then excellent.  Have fun with it.
    Get schwifty.
  • acemuzzy
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    I'm Team JonB. Obviously. :p
  • I mean obviously translation itself is an art and you never know exactly what you're getting in relation to the original if you don't speak both languages. I guess we just expect/hope that the translator has a good understanding of the author and what they were trying to convey through their style, and tries to remain faithful to that, if not necessarily the exact language.

    It's also generally interesting I think that even the hardest of rules for 'good writing' we're used to, e.g. show don't tell, just don't exist in some writing traditions.

    Anyway, maybe this book is just crap after all - I suppose I should read it!
  • Nina
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    Finished it this morning. Coffee still warm.
  • I've read 3/4 chapters this weekend. Should finish it tomorrow.
  • Last chapter to go. I think I know where it's going.
    "Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." ― Terry Pratchett
  • Raiziel wrote:
    I think Muzzy might be anticipating that I didn't like The Narrow Road to the Deep North.  Well I've got news for you, buster: you'd be right!  But also wrong.  I really liked a particular part of The Narrow Road; the part that was the most focused, the most traumatising.  So the middle third of the book, which takes place in Burma, feels like the vertical slice of a better book we never get to read.  If the narrative had perhaps been a more traditional reflection on the horrors the POWs suffered in the jungle it would have been a more engaging piece.  But instead that really juicy filling is topped and bottomed by some thick, anaemic, doughy bread.

    So it's the story of a life instead, then.  One scarred by regret.  But oh wait, it's also the story of some other lives too.  I mean the whole thing around that excellent jungle part felt so baggy and unfocused.  For my tastes Flanagan casts his net too widely, and a lot of the things he drags up just aren't all that interesting or engaging.  His love affair with Amy is too fleeting for me to care about once the story has moved on, and I'm also less inclined to care because Dorrigo isn't much of a sympathetic character.  In fact I think Darky Gardiner was the only character I found myself caring about throughout the entire story.

    Flanagan wields his words well, and I found myself effectively transported to that jungle hell for the book's second act, so I can't help but wonder what could have been if he'd focused in on that.  But then what to I know.  It won the Man Booker Prize after all.

    So I am waaaaaay behind on my reading but I finally finished my book choice.

    I feel similarly to Raz. Especially in that the POW section was the most engaging and I read the quickest. His description throughout is rather good and also when talking about Adelaide and the heat there as I've experienced it.

    Even though I found some of it a slow read, especially early on when it was reading like someone writing to win a Booker prize, I was surprised at how emotional it made me feel when the Amy story was finished up. I guess I'm a romantic even when the guy is a bit of a c-bomb. Could have also been because I was reading it at 3am. I'd say I enjoyed it on the whole but it took a while for me to warm to it and it was held up by the better sections

    It certainly wasn't the book I thought it was going to be though.

    I bought all the others too so have started Affirmation which seems interesting.
  • Started BtCGCn and I'm not enjoying it. I don't actively dislike it, but I'm finding it both very boring and the writing to be extremely stilted. I reads like it's been badly translated, unfortunately. Not sure I'll continue with it, there's other books I'd much rather be reading.
    Gamertag: gremill
  • acemuzzy
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    Ooh sweet
  • Goddamn still a few days to finish. I’m a terrible reader.
  • acemuzzy
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    Yeah I've still got a little to go, haven't read for days :-/
  • Stopharage wrote:

    Ah, nice one. I'm not that keen on non-fiction normally but at that price I'll make an exception. Plus, I like the sound of it - I could do with a bit of positive thinking.
    Gamertag: gremill
  • Raiziel
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    I was out for next months book.  Only time I touch non fiction is for research purposes, plus the book I’m reading at the moment is a gargantuan doorstop of a thing.  Hmm.
    Get schwifty.
  • Goddamn still a few days to finish. I’m a terrible reader.
    Me too. Absolutely useless.
  • Good spot Stoph, cheers! I’m generally fiction only, I only picked this because it sounds like a nice tonic to the current shit storm of 2020.
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  • That's great. I wasn't sure I wanted to fork out for it, but do want to read it.

    It's pretty long for this though. Maybe we want to set out to read a few select chapters rather than the whole thing?

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