Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

Skerret

Good read that

Tempy

Fairly comprehensive set of questions and answers here about what’s going on with all this toxicity in gaming

https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/25/17593516/video-game-culture-toxic-men-explained

RedDave2

Tempy wrote:

Fairly comprehensive set of questions and answers here about what’s going on with all this toxicity in gaming https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/25/17593516/video-game-culture-toxic-men-explained

It's a good read but it is all one side, and as such feels like an echo chamber of ideas (although many I would agree with whats being said). I'd love to see an article where both sides were presented, if only because while I might not always agree with the "left" side of these arguments, I can see their line of reasoning. The "right" has always felt so alien and I'm curious if there is any angle they have other than feeling threatened of "outsiders" changing the world they live in.

Vela

I always thought in videogame discussion in the mid-90s and through to the mid-00s, there was a frequent demand from the regulars for validation of gaming as a genuine art form that can stand shoulder to shoulder with other works from film, music, writing.

The natural consequence of that is that if it truly is to be an art, and not simply a consumer product of disposable nature, then it must be capable to speaking to or from multiple voices. That necessitates a diversity of genders, philosophies, ethnicities among others, as well as the nature of goals within the games (or if there even is one).

Of course what some people wanted was simply validation from Roger Ebert et. al that Alpha Male Power Fantasy With Guns: Trilogy would be considered on par with Vertigo or The Godfather. They never envisaged girls might want to play too, let alone anyone from the various hyper-online connected queer communities who found a wonderful vehicle for expression with the rapid growth of accessible indie development not seen since the early 1980s.

There are two sides to gamergate. Sanity, and irredeemable bigotry.

Tempy

RedDave2 wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Fairly comprehensive set of questions and answers here about what’s going on with all this toxicity in gaming https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/25/17593516/video-game-culture-toxic-men-explained

It's a good read but it is all one side, and as such feels like an echo chamber of ideas (although many I would agree with whats being said). I'd love to see an article where both sides were presented, if only because while I might not always agree with the "left" side of these arguments, I can see their line of reasoning. The "right" has always felt so alien and I'm curious if there is any angle they have other than feeling threatened of "outsiders" changing the world they live in.

Who do you get in for the other side though? There’s no one that springs to mind as holding a reasonable position on this stuff, and they’d at best just be Canute trying to hold back the waves anyway.

djchump

@Vela: Also, people critique art. Sarkeesian should have been applauded for treating the medium as an artform worthy of critique.

Frosty

I feel like recent history has shown that no, we don't actually need to here both sides.

Vela

djchump wrote:

@Vela: Also, people critique art. Sarkeesian should have been applauded for treating the medium as an artform worthy of critique.

Precisely. The only standard she should have been held to was whether her critique was of sufficient academic rigour on par with that in other media. Her voice was well and truly needed. It pretty much took off from some similar threads I recall Leigh Alexander musing upon in Edge ~2013.

Tempy

It's old hat but the most amazing thing about the backlash to tropes is it's like, secondary school level analysis. A silken glove being run across a text, barely engaging with the material in any strong way, but people acted like it was the most insane interrogation of the medium ever.

Vela

It may have been secondary school level, but to the people over reacting it was probably more detailed than anything they had read since they stopped printing hardcopy videogame manuals.

RedDave2

Tempy wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Fairly comprehensive set of questions and answers here about what’s going on with all this toxicity in gaming https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/25/17593516/video-game-culture-toxic-men-explained

It's a good read but it is all one side, and as such feels like an echo chamber of ideas (although many I would agree with whats being said). I'd love to see an article where both sides were presented, if only because while I might not always agree with the "left" side of these arguments, I can see their line of reasoning. The "right" has always felt so alien and I'm curious if there is any angle they have other than feeling threatened of "outsiders" changing the world they live in.

Who do you get in for the other side though? There’s no one that springs to mind as holding a reasonable position on this stuff, and they’d at best just be Canute trying to hold back the waves anyway.

Well apart from the raving idiots , it might be interesting if some developers spoke about why they made their choices. Some of sarkeesians criticism always felt far too general and assumed sexism where it was probably simply a reflection of the creator (ie easier for a male designer to picture a male protagonist and likely with a female designer, especially when many games have little to no major thought going into the character beyond a paragraph)

I just felt it was all too much of one side, to the point of was the article meant to open the readers eyes to stuff or is it so biased that it will only appeal to those who already agree with it.

Diluted Dante

Why is it easier for a male designer to design a male character?

MattyJ

More accurate penis movement

Diluted Dante

Helicopter dick?

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

Why is it easier for a male designer to design a male character?

Genuine question?

If you're creating an avatar for your game provided you aren't making deliberate choices I'd imagine subconsciously you will default to the familiar.

Maybe easier isn't the correct wording but I do think that generic male hero in so many games is more to do with it nothing seeming that big a deal at the time. Gaming design was originally 1 or 2 guys and they're focus was more on getting the code working than the hero's gender and it's social implications.

There's also the wish fulfilment aspect. You want a game where the hero is a cop and that's the key point of the character, you might not think it matters if the cop is male or female so you just default to what you are familiar with and it's a male cop.

MattyJ

Diluted Dante wrote:

Helicopter dick?

Ball swing, floppage...

Diluted Dante

Genuine question.

Unless the character you are creating is author insertion, I don't see why it's easier to create a male than a female character.

Not thinking about it at all, that seems more reasonable.

Yossarian

This is bringing to mind this:

Diluted Dante

Exactly, see how easy it is?

nick_md

It's surely easier to write what you are familiar with.

Diluted Dante

Are you not familiar with women? I've met several.

nick_md

You know what I mean.

Diluted Dante

How many game designers are former soldiers, cops, Conan's?

If we're basing on experience, every protagonist would be an early 20's nerd who lives in Swansea.

nick_md

I don't think you understand.

It's easier to write from a male perspective because we've grown up as males. I'm not talking about professions here.

It's of course perfectly fine to write female characters, but, imo, this could be considered more difficult as a man, because we don't have that experience of growing up as a woman in this world.

Yossarian

I’m with Nick on this one, men do seem to find it easier to write about men. This may be because men seem more likely to seek out books, films, etc by and about men. And, obviously, #notallmen, but the tendency exists.

nick_md

It very much depends on the skill of the writer too, I'd imagine.

voices

Yossarian wrote:

I’m with Nick on this one, men do seem to find it easier to write about men. This may be because men seem more likely to seek out books, films, etc by and about men. And, obviously, #notallmen, but the tendency exists.

It might be more to do with men actually being men all the time. In the same way that someone who is transgender might find it easier to write a realistic transgender character.

Yossarian

P’raps, but I don’t see this tendency so much in women writing about men.

voices

The tendency to get it wrong or, for example, the tendency for women to write about men?

Yossarian

The tendency for women to create male characters full stop.

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