Misogyny and other gender issues.
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Here is what he says in particular. I agree with all of it and none of it is transphobic. I still haven't seen one shred of evidence that he is a transphobe.Tempy wrote:He comes across as fairly reasonable in this RTE interview too, https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/graham-linehan-trans-activists-don-t-realise-the-damage-they-do-1.3765979Regarding early transgender intervention for children he says: “Adults can do what they want,” but “it is dangerous to offer surgery and drugs therapy to young teenagers going through puberty who are gender non-conforming.
“There are lots of gender non-conforming children who may not be trans and may grow up to be gay adults, but who are being told by an extreme, misogynist ideology, that they were born in the wrong body, and anyone who disagrees with that diagnosis is a bigot.”
“It’s especially dangerous for teenage girls – the numbers referred to gender clinics have shot up – because society, in a million ways, is telling girls they are worthless. Of course they look for an escape hatch.”
“The normal experience of puberty is the first time we all experience gender dysphoria. It’s natural. But to tell confused kids who might every second be feeling uncomfortable in their own skin that they are trapped in the wrong body? It’s an obscenity. It’s like telling anorexic kids they need liposuction.”
One of my problems with this scene is there is a lot of bandwagon jumping, of side-taking, and of labelling. Criticism seems to lack any specificity
Not wishing to have a go at you tenpy but this
that anorexia comment isn’t as helpful as he thinks it is I fear. Adds to this idea that he’s talking over a lot of Trans people’s experience, then he just chucks in an eating disorder comment for good measure.
Typifies the kind of lazy comments I see here, lacking in specificity, particulars or any kinds of reasoning. It's as if using words like "talking over" or "problematic" justify not engaging with what people say.
Now I have said I don't like the idea that confused pubescent or prepubescent kids might be "guided" into a conclusion that, just a few years later, might leave them with permanent consequences that they might regret. It may be the kid's just having a tough time with puberty. Could be the kid is gay. Could be the girl feels ugly, doesn't fit in; or the kid is bullied and likes the company of girls. We need to be sure. Saying we need to make sure isn't "talking over" peopl who are trans and are happily trans. That one person's experience cannot be imposed on others. Indeed, that person's experience might well mean that they come to circumstances like the above with a predisposition. The same as me, where I am more likely to think "this is a phase this kid will get over", because I am applying my experience to others.
The best approach is one which doubts and is skeptical, with kids at least.
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I don’t see it as you having a go. Sorry, waiting for an interview so can’t really put a full response
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Good luck! Don't mind my posts, I don't really know much about this. Just naturally socially conservative (and politically radical). Means no one likes meDon't wank. Zinc in your sperms
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Regarding early transgender intervention for children he says: “Adults can do what they want,” but “it is dangerous to offer surgery and drugs therapy to young teenagers going through puberty who are gender non-conforming.
No surgery is offered for children. As the NHS states: Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological, rather than medical or surgical. This is because the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty. Psychological support offers young people and their families a chance to discuss their thoughts and receive support to help them cope with the emotional distress of the condition, without rushing into more drastic treatments.
So what is offered that's not psychological? : "If your child has gender dysphoria and they've reached puberty, they could be treated with gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues. These are synthetic (man-made) hormones that suppress the hormones naturally produced by the body."
So the hormone blockers we've mentioned previously. You can debate if this is something that should be given, but it's deeply unhelpful to conflate it with cross sex hormones or surgery.
“There are lots of gender non-conforming children who may not be trans and may grow up to be gay adults, but who are being told by an extreme, misogynist ideology, that they were born in the wrong body, and anyone who disagrees with that diagnosis is a bigot.”
Who is he referring to here? People on Twitter? Treatment at GIC isn't telling people they are born in the wrong body, it's to determine if they do in fact have gender dysphoria or not. Many don't. As previously noted: "the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty."
“It’s especially dangerous for teenage girls – the numbers referred to gender clinics have shot up – because society, in a million ways, is telling girls they are worthless. Of course they look for an escape hatch.”
Why have numbers shot up? He states as fact that it's because society is telling teen girls they are worthless. Is this the case? It certainly doesn't seem like it's a new phenomena. But the way the medical establishment deal with gender issues and the availability of services certainly has increased. And transmen, whilst still often overlooked in debate are being acknowledged much more than in the past, including by the medical establishment.
“The normal experience of puberty is the first time we all experience gender dysphoria. It’s natural. But to tell confused kids who might every second be feeling uncomfortable in their own skin that they are trapped in the wrong body? It’s an obscenity. It’s like telling anorexic kids they need liposuction.”
This appears to be conflating gender dysphoria with people not liking their body. Its not the same thing, although it's possible to have both. But again, it's appears to be under the impression that every kid who goes into a GIC is told they're in the wrong body, which is just flat out wrong.
I wouldn't quite put it as the best approach being one that doubts and is skeptical, because that sounds quite negative, and a negative approach can easily make things worse. But a slow, careful considered approach doesn't have those same negative connotations, and I think is what you are getting at. The thing is, that's pretty much the approach the NHS takes.
Obviously individuals within the system will differ. You might run in to people who try to block access, or people who will speed things along a bit quicker than most. But that's no different to any other area of health. -
so they are hormones then, you concede as much- so called puberty blockers is a form of hormone treatment. Its effect isn't to swing the body one way or t'other, but it is injecting kids with hormones.Diluted Dante wrote:So what is offered that's not psychological? : "If your child has gender dysphoria and they've reached puberty, they could be treated with gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues. These are synthetic (man-made) hormones that suppress the hormones naturally produced by the body."
So the hormone blockers we've mentioned previously. You can debate if this is something that should be given, but it's deeply unhelpful to conflate it with cross sex hormones or surgery.
Where does Linehan conflate hormone blockers with cross sex hormones or surgery? You quoted him yourself, he used the word "drugs therapy"
Are you saying hormone blockers aren't drugs? You concede they are synthetics hormones. Have you looked up the side effects?
“There are lots of gender non-conforming children who may not be trans and may grow up to be gay adults, but who are being told by an extreme, misogynist ideology, that they were born in the wrong body, and anyone who disagrees with that diagnosis is a bigot.”
Who is he referring to here? People on Twitter? Treatment at GIC isn't telling people they are born in the wrong body, it's to determine if they do in fact have gender dysphoria or not. Many don't. As previously noted: "the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty."
He's not disputing the NHS advice. I take it he is saying that - yes on twitter, and elsewhere, so-called trans activists have monopolised the conversation with unrelenting zeal. And these people do say people are born into the wrong body and that can be determined in childhood. As we noted, Mermaid UK did advertise a fast track service to a German doctor who offers fast track hormone blockers, so the worry is mermaids UK, presumably, are potentially helping worried and vulnerable parents to go outside our jurisdiction. Making the NHS advice redundant.
“It’s especially dangerous for teenage girls – the numbers referred to gender clinics have shot up – because society, in a million ways, is telling girls they are worthless. Of course they look for an escape hatch.”
Why have numbers shot up? He states as fact that it's because society is telling teen girls they are worthless. Is this the case? It certainly doesn't seem like it's a new phenomena. But the way the medical establishment deal with gender issues and the availability of services certainly has increased. And transmen, whilst still often overlooked in debate are being acknowledged much more than in the past, including by the medical establishment.
Thanks for this, it is helping me make an important point. A real feminist's interpretation might be that society is effectively enforcing its own sexist social norms on what a woman is and ought to be by encouraging young girls who do not fall within the range of so-called "female" gender identity to call themselves men, and done early enough, to use medicine to present as men. We are at the heart of why some radical feminists have reacted so adversely to being told they just not and cannot question this movement. BECAUSE THE CENTRAL MESSAGE FEMINISM IS THAT GENDER IS A SOCIETAL CONSTRUCT TO OPPRESS WOMEN, AND WOMEN SHOULD RESIST IT.
I am not a radical feminist so I think if someone wants to be a man then so be it. But I understand, on an intellectual level, their argument. I don't think you do, nor do most "Twitter" feminists who daily reinforce a notion of gender that real feminist's dispute and resist.
“The normal experience of puberty is the first time we all experience gender dysphoria. It’s natural. But to tell confused kids who might every second be feeling uncomfortable in their own skin that they are trapped in the wrong body? It’s an obscenity. It’s like telling anorexic kids they need liposuction.”
This appears to be conflating gender dysphoria with people not liking their body. Its not the same thing, although it's possible to have both. But again, it's appears to be under the impression that every kid who goes into a GIC is told they're in the wrong body, which is just flat out wrong.
I wouldn't quite put it as the best approach being one that doubts and is skeptical, because that sounds quite negative, and a negative approach can easily make things worse. But a slow, careful considered approach doesn't have those same negative connotations, and I think is what you are getting at. The thing is, that's pretty much the approach the NHS takes.
Obviously individuals within the system will differ. You might run in to people who try to block access, or people who will speed things along a bit quicker than most. But that's no different to any other area of health.
I read Linehan here to be opposed to the ideological penetration of gender dysphoria advocates / advisers by a particular virulent, zealous and defensive minority. He may well be wrong altogether and he is almost certainly myopic /overstating. But as I've said in posts passing, that is more likely a function of his being demonised / shouted down - that dialectic, like elsewhere, always results in a lack of measure. See Palestinians shouting death to Israel/ throw them into the sea. An extreme analogy for sure- but are they wrong to claim that Israel has oppressed them and stolen their lands? No. They've been pushed to the extreme by this dialectic of conflict, just as extreme Zionists have in Israel.
A sane person tries to get to the hear of the matter. She doesn't say "I agree with Likud" or "I'm for Hamas". She recognises the injustice and the trickiness of the situation and argues for a sensible dialogue, not an extreme one.
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This isn't particularly helpful to the debate. You're describing the treatment in most literal terms, in a similar vein to the way anti-vaxxers describe vaccinations.Armitage_Shankburn wrote:so they are hormones then, you concede as much- so called puberty blockers is a form of hormone treatment. Its effect isn't to swing the body one way or t'other, but it is injecting kids with hormones.
Phrasing matters here, and he said "it is dangerous to offer surgery and drugs therapy". The first part is incorrect, and the second conflates all treatments together, especially in conjunction with the first part. As for side effects, all medication comes with possible side effects. The existence of them doesn't stop them being administered, but the risk factors associated guide their prescription.Armitage_Shankburn wrote:Where does Linehan conflate hormone blockers with cross sex hormones or surgery? You quoted him yourself, he used the word "drugs therapy" Are you saying hormone blockers aren't drugs? You concede they are synthetics hormones. Have you looked up the side effects?
With respect, a lot of people say a lot of stupid shit on Twitter.Armitage_Shankburn wrote:He's not disputing the NHS advice. I take it he is saying that - yes on twitter, and elsewhere, so-called trans activists have monopolised the conversation with unrelenting zeal. And these people do say people are born into the wrong body and that can be determined in childhood. As we noted, Mermaid UK did advertise a fast track service to a German doctor who offers fast track hormone blockers, so the worry is mermaids UK, presumably, are potentially helping worried and vulnerable parents to go outside our jurisdiction. Making the NHS advice redundant.
In regards to Mermaids, I'm still completely without context on that. What does 'Fast Track" mean? Who was it offered to, when, and why?
What is a 'real' feminist, and who decides who is one or not? Do you appreciate why this is an unhelpful term that sets an adversarial tone?Armitage_Shankburn wrote:Thanks for this, it is helping me make an important point. A real feminist's interpretation might be that society is effectively enforcing its own sexist social norms on what a woman is and ought to be by encouraging young girls who do not fall within the range of so-called "female" gender identity to call themselves men, and done early enough, to use medicine to present as men. We are at the heart of why some radical feminists have reacted so adversely to being told they just not and cannot question this movement. BECAUSE THE CENTRAL MESSAGE FEMINISM IS THAT GENDER IS A SOCIETAL CONSTRUCT TO OPPRESS WOMEN, AND WOMEN SHOULD RESIST IT. I am not a radical feminist so I think if someone wants to be a man then so be it. But I understand, on an intellectual level, their argument. I don't think you do, nor do most "Twitter" feminists who daily reinforce a notion of gender that real feminist's dispute and resist.
If he's myopic/overstating, then he needs to step back and assess what he's saying, and consider if it's useful to the debate. He doesn't have to respond to people who tag him on Twitter. I also think it's the least important part of this discussion.Armitage_Shankburn wrote:I read Linehan here to be opposed to the ideological penetration of gender dysphoria advocates / advisers by a particular virulent, zealous and defensive minority. He may well be wrong altogether and he is almost certainly myopic /overstating. But as I've said in posts passing, that is more likely a function of his being demonised / shouted down - that dialectic, like elsewhere, always results in a lack of measure. See Palestinians shouting death to Israel/ throw them into the sea. An extreme analogy for sure- but are they wrong to claim that Israel has oppressed them and stolen their lands? No. They've been pushed to the extreme by this dialectic of conflict, just as extreme Zionists have in Israel. A sane person tries to get to the hear of the matter. She doesn't say "I agree with Likud" or "I'm for Hamas". She recognises the injustice and the trickiness of the situation and argues for a sensible dialogue, not an extreme one. -
I think I'd find this all easier to take in if it was clear what GL actually wants, he seems to complain about things but doesn't state what his ultimate, ideal end result of all this is.
I don't follow the man on twitter etc so maybe I've missed it. -
nick_md wrote:I think I'd find this all easier to take in if it was clear what GL actually wants, he seems to complain about things but doesn't state what his ultimate, ideal end result of all this is.
I don't follow the man on twitter etc so maybe I've missed it.
This is a false position. Lots of people are critics. They are critical of what goes on. In his case, he is critical of a developing mainstream position on trans equality that assimilates (in particular) trans women to biological women. The fact that he doesn't offer a concrete solution doesn't make those criticisms invalid and and of itself. Or else, most of us on the news, Brexit or inequality thread should never have posted.
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Here’s one ultimate goal from Linehan that we can pin down in black and white: He campaigned for the Mermaids charity’s National Lottery funding to be cancelled.
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Maybe he should say 'I don't know what the answer is' then a bit more clearly. His delivery certainly gives the impression that he has a clear side and knows what he wants out of this discussion.
Edit - @gonz -
I mean, ITT I've said I honestly don't know the best outcome in terms of self identification, I don't think I'm completely closing myself off to contrary opinions and I've taken on-board the notion that calling people bigots needs pretty firm evidence backing it up, so I feel I'm at least giving time to the GC position. I don't think I get that from GC champions.
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nick_md wrote:I mean, ITT I've said I honestly don't know the best outcome in terms of self identification, I don't think I'm completely closing myself off to contrary opinions and I've taken on-board the notion that calling people bigots needs pretty firm evidence backing it up, so I feel I'm at least giving time to the GC position. I don't think I get that from GC champions.
That's pretty cool bud. This is tricky. I think slow, careful progress, a skeptical mindset and rejecting platitudes like "all trans women are women" which believe the complexity of the issue. Same for self identification.
Overall I think there is a wider question about social media echo chambers and groupthink.
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Far be it from Japan to be fucking weird about sex. -
Yeah but you don't wanna be upskirting school girls and end up with a dick pic. Gotta be reasonable here.
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https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/02/02/author-of-young-adult-book-gets-vilified-by-the-mob/
Young adult twitter heh.
(jerry's discussion of tablet and the women's March I'm skipping over, same Mag that went at noam, so hmmmm.)I'm still great and you still love it. -
Interesting piece on the TERF movement here in Britain from the perspective of the States.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/terf-trans-women-britain.html -
Facewon wrote:https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2019/02/02/author-of-young-adult-book-gets-vilified-by-the-mob/
Young adult twitter heh.
(jerry's discussion of tablet and the women's March I'm skipping over, same Mag that went at noam, so hmmmm.)
That's depressing. Another perverse example of misconceived fervour leading to a nonsensical and counterproductive outcome, in this case a debut novelist from a less represented background losing her book.
People have forgotten what solidarity means entirely
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I did lol at the tone dead bit at the end.
I think when people say PC brigade, I imagine this is what they mean.SFV - reddave360 -
Armitage_Shankburn wrote:RedDave2 wrote:I did lol at the tone dead bit at the end.
I think when people say PC brigade, I imagine this is what they mean.
Except they mean you can't say paki anymore like the good old days, this shit just gives them an excuse to say sod the whole thing.
Yeah, I suppose that's a point.
SFV - reddave360 -
It's odd how scared some people are about sexuality. They seem to be confused why there are grey areas in it, as if it's uniquely different to anything else in human life. It's perverse to think this way."Plus he wore shorts like a total cunt" - Bob
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I'm still great and you still love it.
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No, it’s not - it’s a bunch of horseshit. It uses the likes of Ck to show that this kinda outrage doesn’t really hurt the recipient and forgets that a lot of the people on the receiving end of these mobs aren’t the 1%, they aren’t Hollywood millionaires and they are, in fact, middle managers, PR reps, civil servants, care givers and doctors who, while not suffering proles, aren’t wielding their power to hold everyone else down. And these people, when the mob has tasted blood and kicked them into submission, aren’t okay. They do hurt. They do suffer from suicidal thoughts and agoraphobia and paranoia and they are absolutely distressed. And we dehumanise them to such a degree that the only way to pretend that what we’re doing isn’t that bad is to imagine, like the article above, that they’re all the Bill Gateses, the Cks and the Ronaldos in our lives. They’re not, they’re people, and if you need the article above to feel better for yourself, then that’s fine, but don’t pretend that these mobs are harmless.
And the less said about the implication that mobs are not capable of truly being “leftist” and that they’re inherently mysognyistic or racist the better.
tldr; pile of shite. -
Pretty sure it explicitly mentions that it's different for non famous folks.I'm still great and you still love it.
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And it explicitly sites a second article talking about the issues with mobs. Or vampire castles.
I'm still great and you still love it.
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