Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

Facewon

Perfectly good examples of a tone that's not great. Wtf do you want honz.

Armitage_Shankburn

Tempy wrote:

i'm not sure that expecting me to be able to link to a single tweet is useful here, when it's clear that the reason many trans people don't like him is because he spends a lot of time flattening the nuances of the debate by aggressively going after organisations like Mermaids by organising a campaign on Mumsnet.

So you resile from your claim that he "actively add[ed] to an atmosphere of abuse that trans people have to suffer already"

People who have been helped by, or wish they had been helped by organisations like Mermaids seeing a prominent Left Wing figure with a large platform scrutinise them through by association thanks to his constant (and correct) criticism of people like Aimee Challenor. I know he attempts to support and highlights some Trans people, but he doesn't engage with others like Paris Lees. Like you say, it's become a war where people pick gangs. I am not and have never really tried to eke out a position beyond empathy.

That's a lot of words to say no, I can't find a single tweet, but I don't think that stops his use of his platform as an issue. There simply has to be nuance here, but he like many has made it a battle where he is entrenched on one side.

I'm sorry tenpy but this is bullshit. He is basically not being nice enough or positive enough about trans.

Listen, he is just one person. A private individual. He is not a head of state, or a prime minister, or a politician. We have to stop doing that to people. Turning every dude into bill Clinton. We have to stop making vague charges against people just t o escape our own.moral. Responsibility of examining something critically, by saying things like "he's gross" or " he gives oxygen /ammunition" etc.

Essentially amounts to people who have any kind of profile or platform being denied their right to campaign for something they think is important, because some people will (wrongly) take it personally.

You can't exist in society by demanding everyone conform to your own subjective ideology. You live in the world, that's it.

Just because your friends take it personally, are too emotionally involved to see things straight, doesn't mean you have to uncritically dump on the guy. It's lame, and it's weak.

Tempy

Fair enough, I understand the perspective you are coming from. It's something I'll definitely need to think about more. I still don't think he does himself any favours, and I don't like the way he goes about this debate. I think that if you have a platform you have to accept some responsibility for the way you use it.

I think it's easy to see why the Mumsnet/Mermaids thing was so upsetting for a lot of people, there have to be better ways of having this debate than actively pursuing defunding for a charity by rousing up a bunch of members on Mumsnet.

Armitage_Shankburn

Facewon wrote:

Perfectly good examples of a tone that's not great. Wtf do you want honz.

I asked for tweets that backed up a very specific charge from tempy:

actively adding to an atmosphere of abuse that trans people have to suffer already

And I got "god you are so dumb" to a quoted tweet I couldn't read. From non-trusted sites which I said I wasn't interested in.

I don't think it's unreasonable to be exasperated by that.

Armitage_Shankburn

Tempy wrote:

Fair enough, I understand the perspective you are coming from. It's something I'll definitely need to think about more. I still don't think he does himself any favours, and I don't like the way he goes about this debate. I think that if you have a platform you have to accept some responsibility for the way you use it.

Well let's face it he's definitely a dick ahahahaha. He probably has spiralled into an embattled stance.

Same with the so called terfs who insist on misgendering folk.

But the trans shouting "my pronouns they you fucking terf cunt" aren't much better eh.

World's gone nuts. People warring on each other instead of their actual enemies.

Armitage_Shankburn

Spoiler:

Tempy

Like Brooks I just have a lot of sympathy for trans people. I also think trans people can dominate areas of discussion a lot too, which is a hard thing to believe when you have trans friends. Their identity is so important to them, and understandably so. It's nice to think the world has time and space for everyone to argue their point, but you're probably right that it's just dividing and distracting.

Tempy

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Spoiler:

Muslims

Christ, I lol'd

poprock

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

…actively adding to an atmosphere of abuse that trans people have to suffer already …

I’m not about to spend any substantial amount of time on this (I’m not even going to fix the formatting), but here’s what Wikipedia records in it’s usual amateur attempt to be unbiased.

In August 2018, Linehan said the anti-trans protesters at London Pride were "heroes", and that trans women were "erasing" cis lesbians.[13] In October 2018, Linehan was issued with a Police Information Notice under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 for alleged harassment and divulging of private personal information against Stephanie Hayden, a trans woman he had been engaged in a discussion with on Twitter.[14] Linehan alleged that Hayden revealed his contact information as well.[15] In December 2018 he compared activists for trans rights to Nazis[16] and started a thread on Mumsnet calling for people to oppose funding to Mermaids, a charity in the UK helping transgender children. In response to the number of complaints it received, Big Lottery Fund announced it would review a planned grant of £500,000.[17]

Take that with salt if you like, but it’s not a bad summary. Bear in mind that Linehan’s tweets are not the work of a frothing amateur. He’s a decorated writer with noted cultural influence who has a record of organising large-scale Twitter campaigns on fairly varied issues. He knows exactly what he’s doing.

RedDave2

Andy wrote:

Show me evidence, people. Not that evidence. Other evidence.

Well, he did ask for tweets specifically I suppoose

Here is an interesting article on the police involvement. Not really much to do with the topic here but interesting non the less. - https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/12/20/37275129/fighting-on-twitter-in-the-uk-you-could-be-arrested-for-that

More on the main issue of the police visit can be found here but while plenty of screenshots of the other sides complaints from twitter can be found all the ones relating to Linehan are simply 'alleged' -https://www.dailydot.com/irl/graham-linehan-court-battle-deadname-trans-woman/

And finally an article breaking down Grahams approach to the debate based on quotes from the guy. https://medium.com/@notCursedE/graham-linehan-finally-breaks-silence-on-transphobic-it-crowd-episode-c3d85f2445d9

I also tried to access an article which first put me on to Linehans style of...debate from independant.co.uk but I cant find it. Here's one for those who are wondering what the mermaid thing is about - https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mermaids-trans-charity-children-big-lottery-fund-support-transphobia-graham-linehan-a8688701.html

Granted none of this gives you a specific tweet from him but as I said, I'm not on twitter. I just find that the way he comes across is as a bully, a zealot. That doesnt mean he is wrong or maybe partially right, but I think he can do better. I certainly dont think he helps the discussion (I cant find the guardian article but the Robert Webb one is so much more reasoned.

Armitage_Shankburn

Tempy wrote:

Like Brooks I just have a lot of sympathy for trans people. I also think trans people can dominate areas of discussion a lot too, which is a hard thing to believe when you have trans friends. Their identity is so important to them, and understandably so. It's nice to think the world has time and space for everyone to argue their point, but you're probably right that it's just dividing and distracting.

Me too, but this is just a phase. True liberation lies in rejecting group identity. How many gay people do you know who say they 'idengify as gay" or are 'part of the gay community. They're just gay.

Part of it is the abrahamic religions continuing hold over society.

RedDave2

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

How many gay people do you know who say they 'idengify as gay" or are 'part of the gay community. They're just gay. Part of it is the abrahamic religions continuing hold over society.

I would disagree with you on this (well, the community part anyway) . I know some who are very active in what they consider the gay community and promote it heavily in terms of creating a space for their own culture. It's not to every gay persons tastes granted but its not your place to deny the value of people seeking and feeling comfort in groups. A community of any type is a valid way to bring people together.

Armitage_Shankburn

RedDave2 wrote:

Andy wrote:

Show me evidence, people. Not that evidence. Other evidence.

Well, he did ask for tweets specifically I suppoose

Here is an interesting article on the police involvement. Not really much to do with the topic here but interesting non the less. - https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/12/20/37275129/fighting-on-twitter-in-the-uk-you-could-be-arrested-for-that

More on the main issue of the police visit can be found here but while plenty of screenshots of the other sides complaints from twitter can be found all the ones relating to Linehan are simply 'alleged' -https://www.dailydot.com/irl/graham-linehan-court-battle-deadname-trans-woman/

And finally an article breaking down Grahams approach to the debate based on quotes from the guy. https://medium.com/@notCursedE/graham-linehan-finally-breaks-silence-on-transphobic-it-crowd-episode-c3d85f2445d9

I also tried to access an article which first put me on to Linehans style of...debate from independant.co.uk but I cant find it. Here's one for those who are wondering what the mermaid thing is about - https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/mermaids-trans-charity-children-big-lottery-fund-support-transphobia-graham-linehan-a8688701.html

Granted none of this gives you a specific tweet from him but as I said, I'm not on twitter. I just find that the way he comes across is as a bully, a zealot. That doesnt mean he is wrong or maybe partially right, but I think he can do better. I certainly dont think he helps the discussion (I cant find the guardian article but the Robert Webb one is so much more reasoned.

That first article makes me rather well disposed to the man.

I'll keep an eye out for the case, and post the judgment ITT. If it even gets that far. Reading between the lines, the claim is that he retweeted an account, and that account, in another tweet, IDed her. Sounds super vexatious.

Roujin

Gonz what the fuck are you talking about? The phrase "LGBTQ community" gets thrown around all the time, by gay people and straight people when talking about that part of society.

Most trans people don't start talking about themselves by saying they are part of the trans community, if it even comes up in conversation at all, they usually say they are trans. There's also just a straight up difference in how people talk about gender and sexuality which is why you get a difference between saying you identify as a man/woman/non-binary/whatever vs saying you identify as gay when talking to someone.

All of this is beside the point though, why are you even in this thread acting like the arbiter of gender debate? You haven't contributed to anything, you've hung around since new year in here dropping the occasional line/baiting comment and now you're arguing about whether or not Graham Linehan is or isn't a cunt like it's a topic that actually matters.

You look like a fucking clown shoe right about now bro.

Armitage_Shankburn

Thanks for your contribution, it made me lol a bit

Armitage_Shankburn

Brooks

This'll all come right when people have to start shitting together imo. The great humbler.

Unlikely

Always Sunny S13 E7, I think.

Skerret

Brooks wrote:

This'll all come right when people have to start shitting together imo. The great humbler.

Our Bachelor of Toilet Management comes in next year

Lord_Griff

Yep

Armitage_Shankburn

Unlikely wrote:

Always Sunny S13 E7, I think.

That was pretty great

nick_md

So how many different issues are we tackling here?

- Right to self identify (I can't comment)
- Bathroom use (gender neutral, walled-in stalls please, sorted)
- Access to medical treatments or procedures for children

It seems it's the latter that, atm, is the main thrust of the discussion? That's just the latest thing GL is using to air his bigotry, isn't it? I mean, I don't think this is the only thing he's used to attack trans people?

And I should probably say that anyone using physical violence on anyone else deserves condemnation, whether straight, gay, trans, furry or whatever. That some trans woman punched a woman shouldn't make us throw out all trans rights discussion or count in favour of the argument against.

It'd be interesting to know the numbers in terms of children applying / recommended for gender treatment, as well as number of children whose lives were positively impacted by the actions of the charity.

Listening to some of the discussion you'd think mermaids are queuing kids up for puberty blockers round the corner, and I don't think that's the case.

I also know a doctor who was seeing a teenager who transitioned (mtf), then later identified as male again, so clearly there are discussions around treading carefully, but that's not what I see from GL and reactionary nimby's on mn.

Armitage_Shankburn

I'm discussing the haranguing and labelling of people who express concerns like this as bigots, I guess. Still not seen evidence that Linehan has been, and still less of Robert Webb.

There are people policing social media with threats of unemployment and criminal complaints. There is a vexatious litigant after Linehan. But Linehan is the bad guy and that person has been "deadnamed" (ie a string of alias and companies house companies, a scene of violence on YouTube etc revealed) and is the victim.

As ever, I guess, what I am angered by is the uncritical crowdthink.

As for puberty blockers, they can fuck off. Mermaid clearly offer a link to a Dr who offers "the treatment offered on a fast-track basis was hormone blockers." That's what puberty blockers are, hormone blockers instead of replacement. I'd not "fast track" that.

nick_md

I kinda feel like you can hide bigotry behind the facade of legitimate concern, though.

I think RW is wrong as well btw but I have less problem with him simply because of how he's gone about it.

Why do you put deadname in quotation marks? Regardless of how the information was found, using someone's former name when you know it can cause severe mental trauma is a serious dick move. For an example, see Ricky Gervais's bit about Caitlin Jenner from last year's standup.

I dunno, speaking to female friends about this a couple of them say that if they need a man to fight their cause, they'll ask them to. Maybe GL has been asked. Maybe because he has a platform that gives him the right to enter a discussion that concerns women and trans women (not trans men, apparently).

I mean, boil it down to 'should children be fast tracked to hormone blockers' and you'd be hard pushed to find someone saying 'yes' I think. But you're looking at extremes here and missing the larger picture.

Ping us that link from Mermaid anyway and I'll have a look.

Brooks

I consider any gender presentation a choice, and a fucking interesting one at that. I think I'd rather have the apparatus around to cope with bad choices than prevent those choice up front in this case, since they don't seem to have massive structural repercussions right now. Let 1000 gend0rs bloom.

nick_md

We all know what you're referencing, I think, but any old excuse to post again eh?

Armitage_Shankburn

That is hilariously funny still.

LivDiv

It's so good.

Facewon

From the long line of Queensland politicians with nfi.

Facewon

https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1084907201725108225?s=19

The amount of RT it gets from righties wanting to laugh at sjws is quite a thing. Especially as quillette seem to be in on it or created it.

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