Could we keep it on the robust but not nasty side, gonz?

Please.

No, I just couldnt give a shit about you and your nonsense Gonz.

Diluted Dante wrote:

No, I just couldnt give a shit about you and your nonsense Gonz.

I know you know I know you're a coward.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

I know you know I know you're a coward.

What a convincing line of debate. I’m swayed.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

For the record, the times story was 100% true based on the information they had.

And you have the temerity to laugh at people.

Tempy wrote:

I don't know what you mean by that. 

I'm not trying to win an argument with you or anything. I never know why the only way you have of communicating on here is being abrasive and trying to demonstrate your intellectual superiority to others. 

I've already said I find this matter confusing, if you're going to be your typical online self about this then go for it. I'll keep reading the thread, but there's no point me trying to engage with you when you treat it all like a game.

I have my biases, yeah. You being a dick about stuff and acting like you've got one over on me doesn't help me, or anyone else.

It's perfectly clear what I meant by it - that you have bought into a binary world view. World's more complex than that. The truth is Linehan is probably a bit socially conservative, but also a bit rightly concerned. He probably ly started off meaning well, but then he gets hammered, and entrenches. That's how life works. It doesn't mean we can just dismiss his or Mumsnet views.

Tempy wrote:

Right OK, I get it now. You're taking me saying that straight up as a binary that I've presented you with. 

I'm not trying to get a debating society win over you here, I just don't know what you intend to be the outcome of halting progress, if not in some way abandoning the fight for transgender rights. If you think there's a middle ground there, I'm all ears.

There was a go fund me for a trans woman. 34, slightly balding, came to it too late. I gave her some Dosh for a procedure in Portugal. Ideally 21-25 you know where you stand. But I'm wary of doing owt to kids until they are of age. Including retarding puberty. I don't trust putting chemicals into kids sure, dress up as a boy, call yourself a boy, even get the school to adapt. Nothing irreversible or dangerous.

Maybe I do have a binary world view, sure. I empathise with trans people quite a lot. I don't think Linehan goes about his concerns in any kind of manner that befits a person with a platform of his size. He's actively adding to an atmosphere of abuse that trans people have to suffer already. I think there should be less of that. I don't know how to reconcile that with the valid concerns that feminists have.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Right OK, I get it now. You're taking me saying that straight up as a binary that I've presented you with.  I'm not trying to get a debating society win over you here, I just don't know what you intend to be the outcome of halting progress, if not in some way abandoning the fight for transgender rights. If you think there's a middle ground there, I'm all ears.

There was a go fund me for a trans woman. 34, slightly balding, came to it too late. I gave her some Dosh for a procedure in Portugal. Ideally 21-25 you know where you stand. But I'm wary of doing owt to kids until they are of age. Including retarding puberty. I don't trust putting chemicals into kids sure, dress up as a boy, call yourself a boy, even get the school to adapt. Nothing irreversible or dangerous.

I can't say I disagree with that. The brief stint I did at the School placement had one or two kids coming out as trans in a population of over 1000, I don't know if those are high or low numbers. From what I read about Mermaids, they weren't advocating the use of chemicals and HRT. The issue comes later on, when they're 16-18 and have more medical autonomy, and the blocking of access to those procedures increases the likelihood crippling their mental health, and worse, suicide. But what if they change their mind later? Then what? If there's an answer, it's beyond my grasp. I wouldn't ever claim otherwise.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Tempy wrote:

He's actively adding to an atmosphere of abuse that trans people have to suffer already.

Show me a single tweet where he does that. Like I said, I don't have Twitter so I had to look this up. I actually quit Twitter because of the terf-trans battol. I felt like a voyeur.

https://www.dailyedge.ie/graham-linehan-4-4273823-Oct2018/

Bad enough that the police had to issue him a warning.

Tempy wrote:

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Right OK, I get it now. You're taking me saying that straight up as a binary that I've presented you with.  I'm not trying to get a debating society win over you here, I just don't know what you intend to be the outcome of halting progress, if not in some way abandoning the fight for transgender rights. If you think there's a middle ground there, I'm all ears.

There was a go fund me for a trans woman. 34, slightly balding, came to it too late. I gave her some Dosh for a procedure in Portugal. Ideally 21-25 you know where you stand. But I'm wary of doing owt to kids until they are of age. Including retarding puberty. I don't trust putting chemicals into kids sure, dress up as a boy, call yourself a boy, even get the school to adapt. Nothing irreversible or dangerous.

I can't say I disagree with that. The brief stint I did at the School placement had one or two kids coming out as trans in a population of over 1000, I don't know if those are high or low numbers. From what I read about Mermaids, they weren't advocating the use of chemicals and HRT. The issue comes later on, when they're 16-18 and have more medical autonomy, and the blocking of access to those procedures increases the likelihood crippling their mental health, and worse, suicide. But what if they change their mind later? Then what? If there's an answer, it's beyond my grasp. I wouldn't ever claim otherwise.

We need a bill of rights for dicks and vaginas. 2/3rds majority to reverse so add an extra 8 years to get to 24 yo before you can actually fuck with your penis /vagina what alla gave you

Oh I thought this was Des.  But that's Lynam.  Now I feel bad.

Andy wrote:

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

First of all, "warning" could be "listen please don't contact her , she has been calling us non stop for 5 hours".

You know fine well that it doesn’t mean that, that there is no dubiety about precisely what that phrase means.

Actually you may be right, as the call came from West Yorkshire police, same force that went after Rosie Parker (no charge from CPS) after a complaint foromnthe CEO of Mermaids UK, from whom that force had received training.

So actually you may be right, it probably was a stern warning.

Nice Bobby work if you can get it.

I don't follow Linehan. He tweets a thousand times a day, the handful of times I hear about it him is when other people are talking about him. I'm not sure that expecting me to be able to link to a single tweet is useful here, when it's clear that the reason many trans people don't like him is because he spends a lot of time flattening the nuances of the debate by aggressively going after organisations like Mermaids by organising a campaign on Mumsnet. People who have been helped by, or wish they had been helped by organisations like Mermaids seeing a prominent Left Wing figure with a large platform scrutinise them through by association thanks to his constant (and correct) criticism of people like Aimee Challenor. I know he attempts to support and highlights some Trans people, but he doesn't engage with others like Paris Lees. Like you say, it's become a war where people pick gangs. I am not and have never really tried to eke out a position beyond empathy.

That's a lot of words to say no, I can't find a single tweet, but I don't think that stops his use of his platform as an issue. There simply has to be nuance here, but he like many has made it a battle where he is entrenched on one side.

Edit: I think Dave summed it up quite well. I don't think Linehan is wrong to have reservations and concerns about certain people and the intersection of trans rights and feminism, but he doesn't need to tweet "all trans people are devils" to come across poorly.

Show me evidence, people. Not that evidence. Other evidence.