Misogyny and other gender issues. - The Bear and Badger

monkey

Matrix 1 is very good at what it does. 2 and 3 are dire. There’s some nice ideas in there but the overall story goes to shit immediately and so even the few ok bits just become a bunch of stuff that happens.

If I read something about the Coen Sisters’ new film and last I’d heard they were brothers, it’s fairly normal to be surprised by that. “World gone mad” goes a little further than that but Davy held his hands up, didn’t take the get out when it was offered to him.

Kow genuinely wasn’t being transphobic as best articulated here.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

There is absolutely nothing to call out. He said their gender doesn't affect the fact that in his opinion, their movies are shit. In the context of a discussion of their having transitioned, it would have been entirely odd to say, the wachoskis movies are shit. The reference to what their gender was then, and now, reinforced the point. It wasn't transphobic. It did not "deadname” them.

Reg shat the bed. The Woke Sheriff has just deputised him and he marched straight into the saloon and blew someone’s head off for whistling.

And I hope that clears everything up.

nick_md

Failed as a man, failed as a woman.

Intention or not, do you not feel a trans person may be upset about a comment like that, and therefore, why drawing attention to the comment and how it could be interpreted is valid?

nick_md

I appreciate those weren't Kow's direct words, but rather, how they could be interpreted.

Brooks

Is "Deadnamer":

- Bond movie
- Superhero
- Stephen King book
- Pynchon character

JonB

It's the trope that someone who's transitioned 'used to be a man, now they're a woman' that's off. That's all. Like that horribly cringey Ricky Grevais stand-up routine.

I actually didn't know about the Wachowskis, so I've learned that at least.

hunk

First Matrix was good even though it introduced blu/red pilling to the alt right. Then it went overboard with live action cos playing anime with 2 and 3.
Still love the Matrix trilogy to death though.

RedDave2

A quick look on wiki claims that Matrix 4 will just be Lana Wachowski. Interesting if having just 1 voice helps with the overall film.

I find the Matrix trilogy odd. The first one is a no-brainer classic to me. Sure, it's flawed but as an action movie with a bit more thought running through it, it holds up to day and it really was a mainstream break out in terms of the ideas it chucked around. Number 2 has its moments but its no doubt a bit of a mess and 3 dumps the most appealing part of the concept (controlling reality) in favour of a messy sci-fi action movie - but I still kinda like it as a whole.

I'm also a big fan of V for Vendetta, very enjoyable surprise as I'd heard bad things about it going in. Bound is no bad thriller either so while they have done some guff (I couldn't make it past the first 40 minutes of Jupiter Acending) its not a bad list of films all in all.

poprock

I know we’re talking films here, but I think Lana did a really great job with Sense8. It had its problems, but conceptually and visually it was a treat from start to finish.

Kara_Jane_Addams

poprock wrote:

I know we’re talking films here, but I think Lana did a really great job with Sense8. It had its problems, but conceptually and visually it was a treat from start to finish.

Straczynski is a golden god.

Kow

Sense8 was the final nail in the coffin for them, absolute garbage. It put them on my Zack Snyder/won't watch list.

Armitage_Shankburn

nick_md wrote:

Failed as a man, failed as a woman.

Intention or not, do you not feel a trans person may be upset about a comment like that, and therefore, why drawing attention to the comment and how it could be interpreted is valid?

Oh absolutely. If he had said those words, that is. It's funny you had to change his words to make the accusation stick.

Armitage_Shankburn

nick_md wrote:

I appreciate those weren't Kow's direct words, but rather, how they could be interpreted.

When you have to change the words completely to explain how they might be interpreted, you are pretty much fucked, bud.

Lord_Griff

Shania Twain has a lot to answer for.

Kara_Jane_Addams

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

nick_md wrote:

Failed as a man, failed as a woman.

Intention or not, do you not feel a trans person may be upset about a comment like that, and therefore, why drawing attention to the comment and how it could be interpreted is valid?

Oh absolutely. If he had said those words, that is. It's funny you had to change his words to make the accusation stick.

For fucks sake it’s not even an accusation, just how something could be interpreted.

Kow

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it can be considered offensive to make any reference to the fact that a trans woman used to be a man? Even though we can call her trans, which is saying exactly the same thing? (Genuine question, not trying to provoke anyone). I can understand that there is an opportunity for the Gervaise style jokes but I definitely didn't set out to do that and frankly can't see how it could be taken that way without making a willfully stubborn effort. Someone says they were men before and I comment that their work quality hasn't changed since then. I may be out of the loop for sure, but I don't see the offense. Unless you're a huge Wachowsi fan.

Kara_Jane_Addams

Kow wrote:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it can be considered offensive to make any reference to the fact that a trans woman used to be a man?

Nope, not always, but seriously how often is there ever a need to do so?

So when people do, they tend to do it deliberately to highlight it.

Hence some people take offence to that.

Kow wrote:

Even though we can call her trans, which is saying exactly the same thing? (Genuine question, not trying to provoke anyone). I can understand that there is an opportunity for the Gervaise style jokes but I definitely didn't set out to do that and frankly can't see how it could be taken that way without making a willfully stubborn effort. Someone says they were men before and I comment that their work quality hasn't changed since then. I may be out of the loop for sure, but I don't see the offense. Unless you're a huge Wachowsi fan.

It’s all about intent and context, I figured you weren’t being offensive as to be fair it didn’t come across that way given the direction of the thread, equally though I can see how some people could read it differently, even without wilfully stubborn effort.

C'est la Vie

Kow

That's fair enough.

JonB

Kow wrote:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it can be considered offensive to make any reference to the fact that a trans woman used to be a man? Even though we can call her trans, which is saying exactly the same thing? (Genuine question, not trying to provoke anyone).

I don't think it is the same thing. As I understand it (and I admit to being out of my depth here), a trans woman isn't someone who used to be a man then decided they were a woman. They have always been a woman and at some point decided to actively identify as one.

I know you didn't mean anything by it, and that it seems like a minor point, but in the context of how transgenderism is often criticised - as some new age fad that allows people to change identity on a whim - it can be an important distinction.

Kow

..never mind.. Can worms closed...

equinox_code

tbf there are also peeps out there who do change gender on a whim. I have met more than one person who claimed some days they were a guy and other days they were a girl.

It’s a bit of a minefield so I generally steer clear of all this gender stuff these days. At a glance there seem to be many inherent and unresolved contradictions. I’m fine ignoring these in the interests of harmony. Whatever makes people happy

Lord_Griff

Does this mean Michael Jackson was always a creepy white dude?

poprock

Aaand … there are the worms all over the floor again.

RedDave2

Oh but those are glorious worms.

Moot_Geeza

Gather them up before someone starts eating popcorn ffs

yourfavouriteuncle

Tbh I just don’t know where I stand on all this.

I come in here and there’s talk of the merits of the matrix films and then, when I go in the film thread, there’s loads of talk about gender identity.
Honestly, I don’t know where I stand and what the world is coming to.

Kara_Jane_Addams

yourfavouriteuncle wrote:

Honestly, I don’t know where I stand and what the world is coming to.

An end.

RedDave2

yourfavouriteuncle wrote:

Tbh I just don’t know where I stand on all this.

I come in here and there’s talk of the merits of the matrix films and then, when I go in the film thread, there’s loads of talk about gender identity.
Honestly, I don’t know where I stand and what the world is coming to.

Can a thread be transtopic? Topic fluid? Bad jokes?

Yeah, probably.

JonB

equinox_code wrote:

tbf there are also peeps out there who do change gender on a whim. I have met more than one person who claimed some days they were a guy and other days they were a girl.

Yeah, that's another thing again. And frankly I've no idea where we are at that point. Just let them get on with it, I guess.

cockbeard

Interesting, I wonder at what point the deadname is allowed if referring to someone in a historical context. Just I think of Laura Jane Grace, who mentioned publicly the name she later took back in 2007, but didn't publicly come out until five years later. So at what point did Tom Gabel end (haha) and Laura start. Likely easier to just use the current name is it not?

Lord_Griff

Should we burn the tapes of that little weird blond kids who used to sell antiques?

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