I'll be honest, I don't understand why you needed to provide a totally different example based on someone who was fearful of black people, because people are talking about the issues affecting women, not different races. Because in that instance, you are 100% a bigot if you are scared of black people just because they are black and you are worried they are gonna beat you up if you don't give them a smoke or walk through a black neighbourhood as a white person. The characteristic of being black, has no bearing on how someone might treat you, unlike an exchange between a man and a woman. 

No one is saying asking someone out is sexual harassment, women are saying that if they are out and a dude just walks up to them and asks them out that they feel harassed by that. Which is fair, let me just go an dig out my old friend Mr. Dictionary and read up what harassment means. Oh look, harassment means unwanted behaviour which you find offensive or which makes you feel intimidated or humiliated. 

You talk about how if the fear of men is so extreme that it is not the actions of the man in question, but it is the action of the man in question, when the question is "Do women like men coming up to them out of the blue and asking them out?" and a chunk of them say that they don't like that whenever they are asked about it, but dudes are still out here trying it on anyway and even more guys are on the sidelines pontificating about how they don't understand how people are supposed to get their fuck on anymore if men can't walk up to women and start chatting them up uninvited. 

There are lots of ways we can fix the problem, and part of that starts with men understanding that the balance of power in society and in personal interactions between men and women is not equal. Just because you wouldn't mind something, doesn't mean that women feel the same way about the same behaviour, you can start by just listening to women talking about their experiences of unpleasant encounters with men. If we are lucky we will be the last generations who have to deal with the kind of misogyny we have in society today, the internet has given enough people a voice, that the problem can't be swept under the rug anymore, but we won't make it if men keep thinking around the subject because they don't want to address the problems that we have created or allowed to perpetuate through our own inaction.

What the actual fuck?

Roujin wrote:

I'll be honest, I don't understand why you needed to provide a totally different example based on someone who was fearful of black people, because people are talking about the issues affecting women, not different races. Because in that instance, you are 100% a bigot if you are scared of black people just because they are black and you are worried they are gonna beat you up if you don't give them a smoke or walk through a black neighbourhood as a white person. The characteristic of being black, has no bearing on how someone might treat you, unlike an exchange between a man and a woman. 

No one is saying asking someone out is sexual harassment, women are saying that if they are out and a dude just walks up to them and asks them out that they feel harassed by that. Which is fair, let me just go an dig out my old friend Mr. Dictionary and read up what harassment means. Oh look, harassment means unwanted behaviour which you find offensive or which makes you feel intimidated or humiliated. 

You talk about how if the fear of men is so extreme that it is not the actions of the man in question, but it is the action of the man in question, when the question is "Do women like men coming up to them out of the blue and asking them out?" and a chunk of them say that they don't like that whenever they are asked about it, but dudes are still out here trying it on anyway and even more guys are on the sidelines pontificating about how they don't understand how people are supposed to get their fuck on anymore if men can't walk up to women and start chatting them up uninvited. 

There are lots of ways we can fix the problem, and part of that starts with men understanding that the balance of power in society and in personal interactions between men and women is not equal. Just because you wouldn't mind something, doesn't mean that women feel the same way about the same behaviour, you can start by just listening to women talking about their experiences of unpleasant encounters with men. If we are lucky we will be the last generations who have to deal with the kind of misogyny we have in society today, the internet has given enough people a voice, that the problem can't be swept under the rug anymore, but we won't make it if men keep thinking around the subject because they don't want to address the problems that we have created or allowed to perpetuate through our own inaction.

On the first thing- that's exactly the point I was trying to raise. I was using an extreme example of prejudice. Unfortunately as I think we both agree , in the case of a woman being in fear of a man it likely has legit premise.

Specifically to the second paragraph, your example was about the feeling the woman would have if she meets the man later on her own after having politely said no. Your example wasn't that the question was the problem it is how she might feel if she encounters him later on her own. So it's not the issue of whether the asking out is harassment (and I think context is absolutely key there but happy to agree that just going up to someone out of the blue can rightly be called out) its that because the woman said no to the guy in your example she would be fearful of his follow up if they were alone.

Have I got your example correct of have I missed something. Because in your example i read it that it wasn't that the first encounter was unpleasant it was the fear of the what might happen in the second encounter that was the issue.

Edit: also honest question, and I'm not asking this because I'm some fucking love machine stud muffin, but can anyone say they have never been approached by a member of the opposite sex out of the blue in a night club or pub situation? This act doesn't strike me as male exclusive behaviour but because of other events it carries an unpleasant edge if its a man doing it.

RedDave2 wrote:

This act doesn't strike me as male exclusive behaviour but because of other events it carries an unpleasant edge if its a man doing it.

Bingo! Yes.

Men hold all the power and all the cards in our society. You have to acknowledge that fact and view the problem through that lens.

RedDave2 wrote:

Edit: also honest question, and I'm not asking this because I'm some fucking love machine stud muffin, but can anyone say they have never been approached by a member of the opposite sex out of the blue in a night club or pub situation? This act doesn't strike me as male exclusive behaviour but because of other events it carries an unpleasant edge if its a man doing it.

Literally the only time a woman ever approached me on some night out was when I was a student and some fucking 50 year old collars me at the bar and starts chirpsing on and asking me if I liked Nirvana and shit because I was wearing a black hoodie and baggy jeans. Otherwise I am extremely repellent to women, they can like smell my beta hormones or something.

Edit: Just to chip in, I agree, asking someone out of the blue is not male only, but it carries a whole different set of vibes when it's a man doing it to a woman compared to vice versa. 

Yeah I think that's a good point at the end there Dave about attitudes to people getting drunk and aggressive and people getting drunk and pestering people. Same with recognising that behaviour which to men doesn't seem problematic, but to people on the receiving end of it, is something we need to consider from their point of view and stopping it. 

I suppose the good thing is that these are behaviours that people are starting to think about and hopefully we can sort out our kids so they do better, even if we might not be able to help our and older generations.

poprock wrote:

I have had a three-hour briefing session from Police Scotland’s rape and sexual violence prevention team today. 

60–70% of men are considered by the Police to be at risk of offending. Yes, 60–70% of all men. 60–70% of men in this thread, probably.

Just think about that for a minute. It why, if someone right here on this forum makes a joke about pulling on a night out or whatever and it feels a bit off, the rest of us have a fucking duty to call it out, because that is exactly how you begin to change things. You make it less accepted by personally not accepting it.

I asked someone in Pret if I can join her table. I got five years after that.

Way back in the mists of time I was at a party with a bunch of work colleagues. One of the older guys points at a girl across the way and says to me “look at the jugs on that.” I replied by saying “Yes, that’s my girlfriend. What’s your point?” He didn’t believe me, laughed it off, so I called her over and told her what he’d done. She punched him and he deserved it.

Fast forward five or six years and the same man was fired for exposing himself to one of our female team leaders while working late one night, and wanking off in front of her. Calling him out all those years before clearly didn’t teach him a damn thing.

But y’know what? Maybe doing the same thing another few times would have had a cumulative effect and made him think twice.

And y’know what really pisses me off about that incident in hindsight? That the victim, a director of our company, didn’t report the crime to the Police. The fucking pervert got shamed by losing his job but he didn’t get a criminal record out of it. And he bloody well should have done.

DrewMerson wrote:

Stuff …

 

Thanks for chiming in Andy, I think it’s really helpful to get your perspective on this stuff. Wookie’s too, probably.

You’re dead right to pull up the points I posted earlier. I was fresh off the Teams call about it and full of indignation. I exaggerated on purpose, to dial up the impact. Probably shouldn’t have done that.

First of all, it’s the Scottish Police Authority I was being briefed by, not Police Scotland. There is a difference, even if just an administrative one.

The 60–70% of men figure is definitely a vague one (which is why it’s a range, not a specific number). An off-the-cuff figure from one of the SPA team to make the point, not a number backed up with data. The actual numbers will be in the insights/research pack they’ll be sending me later. 

The point I should have made is that this is the campaign marketing side of the SPA, they’re hiring my team to create their next public anti-rape campaign. The chat goes like this: 20% of men are beyond our reach - sociopaths, psychopaths, and ingrained misogynists who will emotionally or physically hurt women. No matter what. Those men are for the criminal justice system to deal with. 10–20% of men will never, ever be at risk of committing sexual offences. They’re literally just too good or nice. Every other man is at risk of offending, at some level, and within our reach for prevention.

And on your second point, you are 100% right. I overdramatised by saying ‘and thus 60–70% of men in this thread …’ because that ignores the demographics of our community here. That was me exaggerating. I probably shouldn’t have.

It is something I have to deal with sometimes in terms of disclosures from pupils about Child Protection issues with parents. In all but two of the times it has happened, the disclosure has come from a male pupil, usually at the S1-2 end of school.

I have had to deal with issues with some of our senior pupils and it really does come from a place of ignorance. The reaction to the older boys when you raise it with them is often extreme "are you saying I'm an X, Y, Z" so there is absolutely a realisation that it is an unpleasant thing in society, but it's a "not me tho, guv" to being called out on it.

RedDave2 wrote:

Curious question Poprock - If a woman had said your girlfriend has lovely breasts would you have been offended? I know in this case the guy did turn out ot be a scumbag but women will often remark on how pretty another woman is and its not that uncommon a thing to hear.

That was actually my evil ex-wife. I wasn’t offended at all, she did have absolutely fabulous tits. It was a pretty obvious point of fact and not up for much dispute. I was angry at the entitled attitude of an older man in a position of power (over me, at work) who thought it was okay to start banter about those fabulous tits. What did he want out of that conversation? He wanted to make it okay to bring sexual objectification into the workplace. And to make it okay to behave as though men automatically held authority over women in the workplace. Which is not okay at all. And look where that attitude ended up taking him.

Context, context, context. There is always a line you shouldn’t be crossing.

DrewMerson wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

Curious question Poprock - If a woman had said your girlfriend has lovely breasts would you have been offended? I know in this case the guy did turn out ot be a scumbag but women will often remark on how pretty another woman is and its not that uncommon a thing to hear.

There is a difference between paying a compliment to someone and making objectifying, dehumanising remarks about physical characteristics over which we have little or no control. In my experience, women will tend to compliment each other by commenting on how the other woman’s hair / make up / clothes really suit them rather than comment on the aesthetics of their mammary glands. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but direct remarks on physique tend to be limited to close friendships. Conversely, think about how often “that” is used in certain men’s language, regardless of whether it’s a woman across the street, or a work colleague. “Look at the arse on that,” or, “I’d bang that,” turn the women into objects. Phrases like, “She’d get it,” or, “I’d smash her back door in,” have undertones of violence and disregard notions of consent. Even if a man would not himself rape a woman, he’s helping cultivate a landscape in which other men think that their views on whether or not women have a right to say no are more widely tolerated and accepted.

This is a very acute and well made distinction about the connotations of violence that comments about women often have. I've certainly heard friends say "I'd do bad things to her" which, if you look at that phrase suggests something awful.

 If the fear of men is so extreme that it is not the action of the man in question but just the general experience that the woman has is in relation to men that makes her afraid than the problem is far beyond even these points.  Men have effectively Woman fearful of all of us (and I'm not saying that it is not justified) Again, how on earth do you fix that? You arent looking to just fix behaviour, you need to fix perception as well.

That's a hell of an If to try to gather useful data on, but I do wonder if the information space most of us live in now has made made this kind of anxiety more acute.

Most probably sounds the death knell for traditional male female interaction. It does contradict the idea of immutable equality amongst genders, which is so overtly pushed for.

It's almost 6pm so I have to get home.