Work - The pros and the cons... - The Bear and Badger

Skerret

Just go along Dante, go along

LivDiv

Diluted Dante wrote:

LivDiv wrote:

Just use the font they ask, Jesus Christ.

If someone cant tell you why you have to do something, it isnt important to do it.

It will be a part of the brand guidelines set out and staff will be instructed to stick to them.
Someone changes the font, someone else adds stuff to their sig, emails start getting sent in yellow. Before you know it the expensive brand guidelines are in the bin.

Diluted Dante

poprock wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

If someone cant tell you why you have to do something, it isnt important to do it.

To represent the organisation coherently and present a unified professional appearance.

LivDiv wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

LivDiv wrote:

Just use the font they ask, Jesus Christ.

If someone cant tell you why you have to do something, it isnt important to do it.

It will be a part of the brand guidelines set out and staff will be instructed to stick to them. Someone changes the font, someone else adds stuff to their sig, emails start getting sent in yellow. Before you know it the expensive brand guidelines are in the bin.

They haven't told him any of this though.

RedDave2

Kazuo wrote:

RedDave2 wrote:

I wouldn't give a toss about internal emails but mails going from the company to customers and suppliers? Yeah, I think they are in the right. You might not agree but it's all about the image they want to project for the company. To me it's a fair demand.

Just for clarification, I work in PR for a theatre company, so all my emails are going to journalists and other PRs rather than customers or suppliers.

Even more reason than if it is or related to PR

I think poprock has nailed it for me. Remember, if they let you use the font you want what's to stop some other dickhead using comic sans.

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

poprock wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

If someone cant tell you why you have to do something, it isnt important to do it.

To represent the organisation coherently and present a unified professional appearance.

LivDiv wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

LivDiv wrote:

Just use the font they ask, Jesus Christ.

If someone cant tell you why you have to do something, it isnt important to do it.

It will be a part of the brand guidelines set out and staff will be instructed to stick to them. Someone changes the font, someone else adds stuff to their sig, emails start getting sent in yellow. Before you know it the expensive brand guidelines are in the bin.

They haven't told him any of this though.

Do they really need to explain it though? It seems obvious why they would want a standardised approach to email SOPs.

Jaco

In fairness, if someone is paying you they don’t necessarily HAVE to explain anything. They’re kinda paying you to do as they say...

Diluted Dante

RedDave2 wrote:

Do they really need to explain it though? It seems obvious why they would want a standardised approach to email SOPs.

Yes.

"Just do it" breeds resentment.

Diluted Dante

Jaco wrote:

In fairness, if someone is paying you they don’t necessarily HAVE to explain anything. They’re kinda paying you to do as they say...

They don't have to, but it's piss tier management if they don't.

Tempy

Cut to Joe standing on his desk, the office ablaze, “Calibri or death” cut into his heaving chest.

They can take my font, but they can never take my freedom!

Kazuo

Some good level headed advice here, thanks gents. I'm touched by how strongly Dante is fighting my corner, but have to concede that you're all probably right.

It is the presumption of the whole thing that's annoyed me more than anything else- external docs, press releases etc I am wholly behind and would happily do what they tell me to, but there was just something extra petty about insisting on the email change for me.

I think what I'll do is ask them to clarify the reasoning behind their switch to Arial (they had previously fobbed us off with some horseshit about it being more "audacious", which really didn't help my feelings about all this rubbish). I'm sure Jim's right on about it being access related, which is grand, but it's all they needed to tell me in the first place.

g.man

I've just looked at Arial and Calibri and FFS, they are virtually identical Joe!

Diluted Dante

No Joe, burn the place down.

Switch to Ariel, but have it 1 point different. Don't stick above or below, switch as you feel. Perhaps you're feeling audacious today, go big!

Do the guidelines mention bold or italics?

Kazuo

They don't. Might just go with strikethrough for extra impact.

Part of this is just down to that I don't like being told to do something when I don't understand why it's important. I'm sure they can explain, but if it really does come down to being audacious then I'll go with Tempy's plan of burning it all.

nick_md

Use the font your employers have asked you to, it's hardly a big deal is it? These people pay you money, presumably.

poprock

Kazuo wrote:

(they had previously fobbed us off with some horseshit about it being more "audacious", which really didn't help my feelings about all this rubbish).

All that horseshit is how I sell what are usually common sense ideas to boards of directors who want to see buzzwords and marketing speak – otherwise they don’t feel they are getting value for money. It doesn’t change the fact that the ideas I’m ultimately getting approved are really good ideas. It’s just one method of getting them signed off by the groups of people holding the purse strings.

You know well enough that you have to match your communication style to your audience – horseshit like calling a font ‘audacious’ is just that. The reason for choosing Arial is that it’s the least offensive of the lowest common denominator standard system fonts and it’s clear and easy to read at small sizes and across long emails.

The isn’t a designer in the world who chooses Arial for stylistic reasons. Arial is the backstop. It’s the lowest down the list in your chosen palette of typefaces, because you need a basic default to fall back on when the main brand fonts aren’t available.

Skerret

g.man wrote:

I've just looked at Arial and Calibri and FFS, they are virtually identical Joe!

OUT

Jaco

poprock wrote:

The isn’t a designer in the world who chooses Arial for stylistic reasons. Arial is the backstop. It’s the lowest down the list in your chosen palette of typefaces, because you need a basic default to fall back on when the main brand fonts aren’t available.

This.

Also, for crying out loud Dante, you can't have that attitude to branding and identity if you work in any decently-sized organisation (or any organisation for that matter). Honestly, you'd be fired in a heartbeat from most decent employers – it shows a complete lack of respect and disinterest in the brand they're trying to build and the identity they're trying to present.

EDIT: You non-designers do know that arguing fonts/branding/identity with a bunch of designers is like opening Pandora's box or turning up to a gunfight with a tooth-pick, yes?

Diluted Dante

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

ShabbyMcCrabby

Create your own font that is Arial except for one letter which is in Calibri. They'll never know.

Tempy

RIP The Brand big man pour one out

poprock

Diluted Dante wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

None of it should piss you off if the change was properly handled and all employees felt some level of ownership/inclusion along the way.

Jaco

Diluted Dante wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

Not everything is a class-war. Some things are just good sense. If you can't see that after everything those of in the industry have said, then there's no hope for you I'm afraid.

And if your employer (who pays you, remember) asks you to do something that doesn't harm you or anyone else (like, y'know, using or avoiding a certain font), it's basic courtesy to just do it. Anything else just makes you look like a bit of a contentious twit.

JonB

Use Arial but include the word Calibri in every email.

Change your name to Calibri if necessary.

Jaco

poprock wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

None of it should piss you off if the change was properly handled and all employees felt some level of ownership/inclusion along the way.

I agree with major stuff (tone of voice, image, messaging, employee engagement etc.), but with the basics (fonts, colours etc.) brand guardians really shouldn't have to explain themselves.

afgavinstan

Joe Calibri sounds like a top 1990s Italian striker

Diluted Dante

Jaco wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

Not everything is a class-war. Some things are just good sense. If you can't see that after everything those of in the industry have said, then there's no hope for you I'm afraid. And if your employer (who pays you, remember) asks you to do something that doesn't harm you or anyone else (like, y'know, using or avoiding a certain font), it's basic courtesy to just do it. Anything else just makes you look like a bit of a contentious twit.

To you. It's just good sense to you. To someone who doesn't know why some seemingly pointless change is being made, it really is just good sense to say "we're making this change for this reason.

Diluted Dante

poprock wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

None of it should piss you off if the change was properly handled and all employees felt some level of ownership/inclusion along the way.

That's exactly the point.

Yossarian

Arial’s a rubbish font but you should probably use it.

RedDave2

Diluted Dante wrote:

poprock wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

This is precisely the attitude that pisses off rank and file employees.

None of it should piss you off if the change was properly handled and all employees felt some level of ownership/inclusion along the way.

That's exactly the point.

Where do you draw the line on this though? I get your point for the most part but will you be as keen on the type of paper used, who the supplier you use will be, etc? Part of being rank and file is being able to follow through on the stuff without having to get knee deep in the why. The issue doesn't seem to be that an explanation wasn't given, it's that kazuo doesn't want to be told what to do.

And as a flip side, if you think it pisses of the rank and file being told what to do, imagine the management side where you are trying to put together a consistent public message and someone in PR keeps messing just because they don't like being told what to do.

tigersgogrrr

Maybe if you want to make decisions about fonts you should do into management.

Not sure why anyone would refuse to use a font if their boss asked them to do it. It's a bloody font!

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