The one Gav linked to? Seems to me to only contain deflection and distancing.

nick_md wrote:

I heard one take that was, if you want to support/enjoy the art without supporting someone problematic, pirate it. That was in reference to R-Kelly at the time, but it seems even better suited to large-team efforts like film/games, you can ensure the hard work of the staff is seen and appreciated, without giving financial support to the problematic entity itself.

I dunno, in the long run that ensures that the staff end up unemployed.

It’s hard to hurt a company without ultimately hurting its employees. I suspect it might be best done through government - policy, regulation, etc. I’m not sure though. It’s a thorny problem and I struggle to have clear opinions.

ShabbyMcCrabby wrote:

I just wanted to say that I believe in rehabilitation. Because what's the alternative and how does that help anyone?

I think the collective action from Warren Ellis’ victims has a strong take on this.

If you haven’t seen it and you’re curious, the website’s So Many of Us.

I think this general vibe is particularly hopeful:

To be clear, our aim is not to see Warren Ellis punished, we are here to look forward. We believe it is important to amplify awareness of a pattern to change the culture of complicity.

You can camoflage it a bit but I think how and what performance markers are getting pretty normal. This is an easy way to advertise it as a change and include the carrot version that reporters can gobble up.

If they just said “our performance markers will now include behavioural aspects” the easiest cynical take is to say “why would anyone do it!”

I think they are in an impossible situation now based on their own blindness and they deserve the pain but that doesn’t make them irredeemable either.

You have to assume that with all of these problems being public they’d be paying a lot in tribunal fees and settlements and so on.

Comic book Warren Ellis, rather than Music Warren Ellis

I think the counter to g's point, which has some merit, is that when it's systemic within a company, it really should be all methods of resistance/protest on the table. Yes, abuse happens in lots of circumstances, but not every company is top down hr included mess.

Throwing hands up just continues the problem.

Cynicism isn't actually an answer. Imo etc, it's a mess etc.

I might be wrong but I can't help but think its probably ten times worse at Japanese companies, but it just doesn't get out because it's the norm. Which is even more horrifying.

I don't know, but they should totally fire that norm guy.

Goodbye Norma Jin.

So, thinking about the past page or so, apologies for this stream of stuff.

None of this stuff exists within a bubble, and there is certainly a massive pattern of men in niche or marginalised groups rising to the top and abusing their positions - the comics stuff recently has certainly further attested this, and the implosion of streamers, and specifically esports (rip smash community) further supports it.
That said.

This is (primarily) a games forum, and we are in the games news thread, and what has come up is about a fairly major games company. That's what we are discussing, and to other it by saying it happens everywhere is a deflection away from systemic abuses of a variety of sorts in Ubisoft. We can't just say "ah well, it's the same everywhere and always has been" because we don't move on. And certainly saying "ah it's probably worse in other cultures because nothing comes out" doesn't support anyone.

Ubisoft are in the spotlight now, and if you really care about causing change, show them that you don't tolerate this shit. Dont play Siege / The Division for the next while. Certainly don't give them money or pre order any games. Give them an impact, no matter whether you think it is negligible or not. Otherwise, to simply go "ach well what difference does it make if I fire up AC for a hours" shows that it doesn't really bother you at all.

Sorry for all that spraff.

I think the thing that separates Ubisoft is it's systemic specifically to the company. It's not just a few bad eggs, and while the industry has issues they generally don't appear to be quite as severe as this. Something is really wrong when you have a global company with a rapey culture permeating across varied international locations. So it's not like refusing to watch a Woody Allen film or, like, boycotting the dairy industry. It's specifically Ubisoft that deserves to be targeted.

Re: boycotting, it's difficult because I think the key is how effectual the response is once it all comes out. We're still very much in the middle of it. Ubisoft should feel the threat of consumer boycott but the crunch point for consumers is whether they act on it, I think. Rockstar is reportedly turning itself around. Ubisoft could start to do the same or its response could be ineffectual in which case I think that poses real ethical concerns for its consumers. But in the meantime I wouldn't blame anyone that feels uncomfortable supporting Ubisoft products for taking their money elsewhere - people have an absolute right to not support a company with a rapey company culture if they don't want.

Reg and Gav are where I’m at with it. I’m not giving it a pass just because it happens elsewhere. It’s something I can have a minor effect on and so I will. Maybe it won’t make much difference overall but I’ve been made aware of really shitty corporate practices, the subsequent attempts at cover up and then the scramble to lessen the impact on their sales and share price and all show behaviour I don’t really like.
G certainly makes a valid point about it probably goes on elsewhere/everywhere but that still doesn’t make me feel like ignoring this one.

I'd agree with much of Reg's post, except perhaps don't worry about impact. I see it as more a case of 'fuck this shit, I don't want to deal with these people anymore.' So even if it's just you, and no one else does the same, it still feels worthwhile. (And if anything bigger does come of it, then great.)

And I think it's important psychologically to act on individual cases that seem particularly severe. The danger with ethical consumerism is that it can feel like we've got all the responsibility and guilt for all the shitty practices that go on, because it's up to us to inform ourselves about our decisions, which is impossible to do all the time. We should reject that idea.

It's true of course that just about everything is tainted with exploitation of some form. As far as that goes, I think it's best to consume less overall, since the system relies on waste and excess.

JonB wrote:

I'd agree with much of Reg's post, except perhaps don't worry about impact. I see it as more a case of 'fuck this shit, I don't want to deal with these people anymore.' So even if it's just you, and no one else does the same, it still feels worthwhile. (And if anything bigger does come of it, then great.)

And I think it's important psychologically to act on individual cases that seem particularly severe. The danger with ethical consumerism is that it can feel like we've got all the responsibility and guilt for all the shitty practices that go on, because it's up to us to inform ourselves about our decisions, which is impossible to do all the time. We should reject that idea.

It's true of course that just about everything is tainted with exploitation of some form. As far as that goes, I think it's best to consume less overall, since the system relies on waste and excess.

This is it. It's dead easy to go 'well it happens at Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, im sure' potentially to highlight hypocrisy, but again that's an exercise against someone taking a stand rather than actually tackling the perpetrators.

As a weird one, having been a Smiths obsessive, seeing Morrissey somewhere like 8-9 times live, reading Morrissey's autobiography (and, at the time, defending it even though it's poorly written) Flora and i haven't listened to either the Smiths or Morrissey on Spotify in probably 4-5 years now as he is the worst. I don't need to defend a man who is solvent for life.

I like Morrissey, but I don't like Morrissey.