The Car thread - The Bear and Badger

jdanielp

In terms of the jealously factor, it is a fairly anonymous car so I haven't felt too self-conscious driving it so far, although occasionally a child will wander past, point and shout 'TESLA!' loudly, which is mostly quite amusing.

Bob

jdanielp wrote:

Yeah... I tried it when things were quiet (so basically in Scotland) to get an understanding of what it is capable of and have to say that that aspect is underwhelming compared to the newer version of Autopilot. The adaptive cruise control with lane-keeping feels really reliable in comparison and if you are happy to cruise along a couple of seconds behind a lorry it makes for some efficent energy usage and a bit of a break of full-on concentration.

Adaptive cruise control is brilliant I drove all
The way from
Ballasalla to Douglas with out touching the accelerator once in a Subaru it just does it all
For you

Dinostar77

What happens if you run out of charge and cant get to a recharge point. Do you get towed to a garage or a recharge point?

jdanielp

Dinostar77 wrote:

What happens if you run out of charge and cant get to a recharge point. Do you get towed to a garage or a recharge point?

I think so but I intend not to find out! I believe that vans that can charge your car are becoming a thing. The car does warn you when you are low on charge and if you can slow down substantially and switch off air-con etc. you can still get some good range and there should be some energy reserved even after the battery is showing 0%. Some people like to test the range of electric cars by driving them at a low constant speed ('hypermiling') which routinely gives more than twice that advertised.

Dinostar77

Tesla monitor screen not big enough for you? Well how about the new s-class from Mercedes. Utterly ridiculous. About as minimalist as you can go for buttons on a dashboard. Oh its OLED as well.

https://youtu.be/_bY8EcDzg3g

GooberTheHat

Looks ridiculous. I still prefer physical buttons that I don't need to look at.

jdanielp

I'm surprised that the seats aren't screens as well.

g.man

GooberTheHat wrote:

Looks ridiculous. I still prefer physical buttons that I don't need to look at.

Vey much this.

GooberTheHat

It looks like someone has wedged a laptop in the centre console

g.man

Yeah, it's fucking rancid design. Loves me my BMW iDrive. It's touchscreen is literally never used because the centre console physical controls are so fucking perfect.

LivDiv

g.man wrote:

GooberTheHat wrote:

Looks ridiculous. I still prefer physical buttons that I don't need to look at.

Vey much this.

How is that legal but you can't use your fucking phone as a sat nav?

LivDiv

How much will it cost when the software shits its pants?
I bet you don't get change out of £500 for Mercedes to run a diagnostic as it is.

Funkstain

I guess when you can drop £100k on a car then you don’t worry so much about practical repair costs?

LivDiv

Yeah I suppose it is all relative if you are the first, maybe second owner.

As has been discussed before, where do these cars sit in 15 years time?
I'm complaining about my 54 plate 1 series being a money put this year because I have spent a grand on it. Yet that included 2 front springs, one rear brake line, both front brake hoses, a wish bone and several rear suspension bushes.

How will Merc, Tesla etc treat software updates on cars they are no longer profiting on is a worry.

poprock

They don’t care. Part of the grand plan of disrupting the auto industry is moving away from an ownership model on to a leasing/subscription one.

Personally I find that abhorrent because it relies on constantly junking and building new cars.

(Not a dig against Tesla, by the way. Traditional manufacturers are almost as guilty of it at this point.)

LivDiv

Yup.
It reverses all the good that could come from non fossil cars.
While simultaneously making ownership, or even access elitist.

The only thing I can see them doing to prevent mass scrapage is adopting the mobile phone model where they take cars of a certain age, use them as donors to create best second hand models then sell them to emerging markets.

jdanielp

LivDiv wrote:

How will Merc, Tesla etc treat software updates on cars they are no longer profiting on is a worry.

Tesla roll out regular, free over-the-air software updates to all of their vehicles (mine is already awaiting one but I need to go somewhere where I can connect to wi-fi to download it) regardless of age. The benefits from each update are based on the configuration of the car (e.g. Autopilot 1 cars, like mine, won't be getting any new features to that since they developed a completely new system), but new features and improvements are still being produced for older models. It is possible that this will end eventually, but it'll be a while yet.

poprock wrote:

Personally I find that abhorrent because it relies on constantly junking and building new cars.

I don't really see the disruption as a huge problem because there is currently a huge demand for electric cars so the production of newer models increases the availabilty within the second-hand market. If and when a car is no longer repairable then the battery can still be used for lower demand energy storage before eventually being almost completely recycled. The motors and inverter will almost certainly still be good for some time to come so can be repurposed for an electric conversion project. At this point there is still a fair amount of the car left over for more conventional scrappage, but far less than the equivalent for an end-of-life ICE vehicle.

poprock

I think you’re looking five years ahead at most there. But look 10 years on and if the whole industry moves to leasing, subscriptions, and eventually shared mobility (ie. not owning cars at all) then there is no second hand market at all. It very quickly becomes entirely about always building new and always scrapping.

There is no second-hand ownership when there is no ownership at all.

Yes, you can look at how the end-of-life is managed, what post-car uses for scrap materials there might be … but you’re still creating a huge increase in environmental cost by constantly manufacturing new vehicles.

Funkstain

10 years only? Maybe...very conservative people involved in the chain here though, from incumbent manufacturers to end target consumers

Also improvements in re-use and recycling are possible and even likely given financial and marketing/PR benefits, reducing environmental impact significantly (possibly)?

Another possibility is that the "new way" to manage private / personal transportation will simply have many incumbent corporate victims. Maybe the likes of Ford, VAG etc will simply be left behind in this new model - no ownership implies (to me) orders of magnitude fewer cars needing to be manufactured in total, with more of a temporary on demand model (why have a car stuck on a driveway 50%-75% or more of the time, which you're paying for by the minute, when you can just summon one locally within minutes?)

g.man

I can see demand being quite high for an electric VAG.

jdanielp

That's a fair point but I'd be surprised if the switch takes place that quickly although the more people that are not owning a car individually (especially when it is parked doing nothing but taking up space most of the time) the better to help prevent our roads becoming even more congested/dangerous/polluted than they already are.

Bob

poprock wrote:

I think you’re looking five years ahead at most there. But look 10 years on and if the whole industry moves to leasing, subscriptions, and eventually shared mobility (ie. not owning cars at all) then there is no second hand market at all. It very quickly becomes entirely about always building new and always scrapping.

There is no second-hand ownership when there is no ownership at all.

Yes, you can look at how the end-of-life is managed, what post-car uses for scrap materials there might be … but you’re still creating a huge increase in environmental cost by constantly manufacturing new vehicles.

But then there’s no need to keep making new cars it’s like buses the fleet is renewed but only when the old ones are no longer economic

poprock

You’re all making fair points. I’m the big cynic in the room on this stuff, I know. I think there will be a shift. It’ll be pushed by the Government because they think killing off the private car is a green move that will win them votes. It’s all there already in their transport strategy. I think carmakers are willing participants in the ride at this point - keep an eye on how many of their concept cars over the next year or two are all about shared ownership and passive passenger experience.

g.man

I've noticed in the last couple of years that whenever dealers email me with amazing offers and promises of huge stocks of cars I might want to buy that the price of the actual fecking car is never quoted now. Everything I'm sent is tied to the different leasing options now.
Me? I'm one of the few who still buys cars with one cash payment. Now we're a dying breed, but if I was leasing my vehicle, then I haven't worked in six months and the monthly bills would still be rolling in.
This is why I've always liked to own stuff like cars, because when life goes tits up, and boy has it gone tits up, then at least the bailiffs aren't towing it away.

poprock

I’m the same as you on all that G. The dealers and manufacturers make more money from loans and leasing than they do from the cars themselves though, which is why it’s pushed so hard.

Take Porsche as an example - they’re primarily a finance/investment company now, who happen to make cars.

g.man

Yup. It's the car industry equivalent of Game trying to sell you a console warranty.

GooberTheHat

I'm a cash in hand type too. It just feels nice knowing I own it.

Funkstain

But PCPs are regulated the same as any other credit agreement in this country - ie you can pay it off whenever you like, and there's no front loading of interest allowed.

So, if your dealer says "hey, this car is normally £20K. We'll set cash price at £18K, and if you go PCP manufacturer will thrown in another £3K as deposit contribution, so "actual cash price to you" is £15K".

You go thanks very much - sign up to agreement, and after 2 months (or even within 2 days!), pay off the rest of the balance. Done. That's what we're doing with ours - made it cheaper to buy new than a 1year old nearly new.

afgavinstan

Funny that, I'm in the zone that I know that for the foreseeable, I'm going to have to get by on whatever <£1000 car will do me. Frankly, I'd love to have a credit rating and salary that allowed me a nice fancy German beast on PCP.

Still amazed though my mazda that I actually really do adore now (first is always the best I suppose) only cost me £550.

Funkstain

I’ve never spent more than £4K on a car - and that was an irresistible burst of passion for a ‘98 Fiat Barchetta - if it’s about getting from a to b relatively safely then there’s plenty in the £500 - £2k mark that’ll do you for three or four MOTs. I have a lovey seat Toledo once, top spec in terms of options etc. Loved it.

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