The Star Wars thread - "Chewie, we're home." - The Bear and Badger

pantyfire

I didn't try and justify anything. I just watched the kids film about laser Wizards and enjoyed it.

Yossarian

Roujin

And yet it's possible to enjoy a great number of films for children as an adult which are competently made with well thought out plots and dialogue and character behaviour without having to say to yourself, "It's fine, this is a film for children (which contains scenes of a man being sliced in half) so I don't expect care and attention to have been paid to anything other than shiny colours and loud noises"

That's like going somewhere to eat, ordering a kids meal and then saying "Well the food was shit, but it was a kids meal, so I just ate my greasy deep fried waffle chips, watery beans and bread filled sausages and enjoyed it."

bad_hair_day

Yossarian

Roujin wrote:

And yet it's possible to enjoy a great number of films for children as an adult which are competently made with well thought out plots and dialogue and character behaviour without having to say to yourself, "It's fine, this is a film for children (which contains scenes of a man being sliced in half) so I don't expect care and attention to have been paid to anything other than shiny colours and loud noises"

That's like going somewhere to eat, ordering a kids meal and then saying "Well the food was shit, but it was a kids meal, so I just ate my greasy deep fried waffle chips, watery beans and bread filled sausages and enjoyed it."

That thought never crossed my mind even for a moment.

Yossarian

I do find it weird that people who dislike this film seem to be so sure that it’s rubbish that anyone who enjoyed it must be kidding themselves/making excuses/deeply mistaken instead of just holding a different opinion.

It’s okay guys, we can like different things.

Verecocha

In my continued disappointment with TLJ I’ve been going through alllll the expanded universe Audiobooks again to and from work, finding myself at The New Jedi Order and loving every second of it.

Tempy

I still don’t think the plot of the film is that bad when taken alongside any other SW film, and I thought RLM’s original take on it was pretty shitty for them - expected better from Jay especially - and has spawned a lot of cloned/parroted arguments.

Roujin

No, no. I understand that people like the film. What I find fascinating is that people either don't care or don't register that characters are saying and doing things that are totally jarring with the story or the tone.

This film is poorly written, I have a real bugbear with anything being given a huge budget and then turning out sub par work, especially since I'm going to be expected to pay top whack at the cinema these days to see anything I'm interested in.

Back to my food analogy, people don't put up with being served shitty food from anywhere claiming to be a competent eatery, but what's interesting about media is that frequently people are prepared to swallow a load of tripe. It's genuinely a source of some intrigue for me.

Tempy

I think the older SW films can be frequently shown to be poorly written too (the absolute nonsense that is the “plan” to infiltrate Jabba’s palace etc) but they’re entombed in years of cultural baggage that make them almost unassailable. There’s very little critical distance through a confluence of all sorts of things happening - nostalgia, canonisation, a robust aesthetic etc

I find your middle paragraph interesting because it suggests that there’s some kinda platonic high for story writing that should be achieved by pouring money into a project, which only leads us to the kind of anhedonic, focus tested and homogenised story that gets derided over in the MCU. Stories are an art, not a science. They don’t generally get better with more money added. Regardless of whether you like TLJ or not, that approach to cinema seems really reductive to me.

Yossarian

Roujin wrote:

No, no. I understand that people like the film. What I find fascinating is that people either don't care or don't register that characters are saying and doing things that are totally jarring with the story or the tone.

This film is poorly written, I have a real bugbear with anything being given a huge budget and then turning out sub par work, especially since I'm going to be expected to pay top whack at the cinema these days to see anything I'm interested in.

Back to my food analogy, people don't put up with being served shitty food from anywhere claiming to be a competent eatery, but what's interesting about media is that frequently people are prepared to swallow a load of tripe. It's genuinely a source of some intrigue for me.

Ronald McDonald disagrees.

But no, I found nothing jarring in it at all, but surely finding something jarring is pretty subjective anyway, no?

RamSteelwood

pantyfire wrote:

I didn't try and justify anything. I just watched the kids film about laser Wizards and enjoyed it.

I've watched quite a few kids films about laser wizards. Some of them i really enjoyed, some of them i didn't it.

pantyfire

I sat and watched Star Wars for the first time in years last year.
Bits of it are badly written and the pace is strangely relentless, it doesn't give anyone or anything any time to breath. It's a wonder we cared about any of the characters looking back.
It had a rather large budget as well.

Roujin

Tempy wrote:

I find your middle paragraph interesting because it suggests that there’s some kinda platonic high for story writing that should be achieved by pouring money into a project, which only leads us to the kind of anhedonic, focus tested and homogenised story that gets derided over in the MCU. Stories are an art, not a science. They don’t generally get better with more money

Agree 100%. I'm not saying that big budget things should be better than small budget things, but if you're going to throw a wad of cash at a movie production and all that wad of cash does is make some really nice VFX shots that do nothing to improve the storytelling, then I'm not going to be hugely receptive to that, because it's like you're being mugged off. Here, look at the nice visuals, don't worry about the absolute sub par script/acting/anything else that drives the story. I think it's a good thing that RJ was given free reign in TLJ to kill the past and write something new and take risks and subvert expectations, but in the context of a blockbuster movie, where the budget clearly exists for it, to not have the scripting or the editing, or the acting or anything else not be as on point as your vfx is a pisstake imho.

All I want for a film is a basic level of competence, and I don't see that in the way that TLJ handled it's delivery of the plot. Imho etc.

I'm not advocating focus testing like the MCU, I want the work to speak for itself and the people who made it. Fuck an audience test. I think half the problem with movie budgets is that for the big features they're now so big the studios wont take any chances on them, but that's different to what's happening in TLJ, imo. Yhe story can be derivative trash garbo, just tell it well. That's all I want. If anything I would be more receptive to a film had a bad story but it was well told than films with serviceable plots poorly delivered.

Iunno, I sounds like a miserable twat but I'm really not trying to be. I mean, I had more fun watching Ghost Stories at the cinema than TLJ, that's the point I'm trying to make I guess. Badly.

Tempy

Ultimately I don’t really have much to say about TLJ as a film. I’m sure it genuinely fails a bunch in places, but all its main beats resonated for me, and bar the pacing issues with Canto, I thought it was perfectly fine, as in middle ticket 6/7 outta 10 stuff. It was a film with themes and ideas, and they weren’t always translated well but overall I felt they managed. I can see why people would dislike it, and there are plenty of parts that I felt didn’t work so well either.

The issue I have is that this kind of new criticsm, this overwhelmingly thorough, hugely reductive and painstakingly analytical style of inspection of a film that has been fostered online would probably crush any number of classics including the OG films by virtue of ultimately not being a useful mode of understanding stories. It’s all about formalisation of ideas into hard logical ideas, very game feeling systems of progression and so on that have to make absolute logical sense at all times... and that’s simply not what stories are about? They’re full of contrivances and shortcuts to reinforce themes and ideas. They’re full of mistakes and concessions, of characters doing what they want as opposed to perfectly following on the arcs of expectation. Resolution is allowed to be unsatisfactory, because in life it so often is. Tying things up with a bow is equally criticised, so the line of acceptance feels incredibly narrow.

I understand why this mode of criticism is popular, and why it tends to rear its head more around things like Star Wars and the Marvel films and so on, but I am not sold on it as being in any way constructive. It’s definitely reductive, and I think it may well lead to safe studio films being made even safer, but I worry that we’ve reached a critical mass online of a certain type of review being tolerated and accepted over any other type. I dunno, I’m rambling here, but ultimately I think there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike TLJ and plenty to love it, but as someone in the middle but closer to the latter side, all I ever seem to hear are arguments that paint Rian Johnson as some kind of cartoon villain who incompetently failed upwards and made a SW film that was utterly full of mistakes that no one at any production level noticed, instead of someone who attempted to tell a story that they thought would resonate with a modern audience. The tools being used to prove that seem to me fairly unhelpful. There are more pertinent things to deconstruct, such as whether the ideas and and themes presented are even worth attempting in a big race to the bottom franchise like SW. But sure, the inconsistency, childishly calling Rian names, a stupid petition to get a film remade instead of just accepting it and moving on.

EvilRedEye

I feel like it's relevant to point out the new Star Wars films are being churned out in two years instead of three like the old ones, which seems to be resulting in story formulation being rushed.

pantyfire

Tempeh is my hero.
Said everything I've been feeling for a while but I am too inarticulate to put it into words.

g.man

I thought it was an insultingly bad film. Christ, if I can't spend my disbelief in the Star Wars universe then something is going badly wrong. Other people liked it.

world continues to spin

g.man

Skondo

What g said.

I did have expectations, the film did not rise to meet them. It didn't help that the story was poor, it was badly written and Daisy cannot act. Characters behaved in completely different ways to how they had in episode 7 and without any explanation. Lots of films have questionable moments or parts you just can't believe. This was full of them. Saying 'forget the past' ad infinitum is not a suitable get out clause.

Maybe, Rian should have done a stand alone Star Wars film if he wanted to do his own thing.

poprock

I’ve got Rouj’s back here. I think.

Basically I can’t forgive a big budget movie being incompetent on some level or another. I expect a base level of professionalism and then get annoyed if there’s a particularly poor actor, or especially cheesy dialogue, or sometimes when there’s a nasty plot hole somewhere.

I don’t expect to like everything, but I expect a certain level of cashmoney investment to be a reliable indicator of basic competence for everyone involved.

(This is not a comment on The Last Jedi. Just a general musing.)

Tempy

plot holes eh

Not particularly aimed at anyone, had just literally watched this video as Pop posted his post.

Roujin

Tempy wrote:

The issue I have is that this kind of new criticsm, this overwhelmingly thorough, hugely reductive and painstakingly analytical style of inspection of a film that has been fostered online would probably crush any number of classics including the OG films by virtue of ultimately not being a useful mode of understanding stories. It’s all about formalisation of ideas into hard logical ideas, very game feeling systems of progression and so on that have to make absolute logical sense at all times... and that’s simply not what stories are about? They’re full of contrivances and shortcuts to reinforce themes and ideas. They’re full of mistakes and concessions, of characters doing what they want as opposed to perfectly following on the arcs of expectation. Resolution is allowed to be unsatisfactory, because in life it so often is. Tying things up with a bow is equally criticised, so the line of acceptance feels incredibly narrow. I understand why this mode of criticism is popular, and why it tends to rear its head more around things like Star Wars and the Marvel films and so on, but I am not sold on it as being in any way constructive. It’s definitely reductive, and I think it may well lead to safe studio films being made even safer, but I worry that we’ve reached a critical mass online of a certain type of review being tolerated and accepted over any other type. I dunno, I’m rambling here, but ultimately I think there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike TLJ and plenty to love it, but as someone in the middle but closer to the latter side, all I ever seem to hear are arguments that paint Rian Johnson as some kind of cartoon villain who incompetently failed upwards and made a SW film that was utterly full of mistakes that no one at any production level noticed, instead of someone who attempted to tell a story that they thought would resonate with a modern audience. The tools being used to prove that seem to me fairly unhelpful. There are more pertinent things to deconstruct, such as whether the ideas and and themes presented are even worth attempting in a big race to the bottom franchise like SW. But sure, the inconsistency, childishly calling Rian names, a stupid petition to get a film remade instead of just accepting it and moving on.

I'm 100% on board with this, i have no truck with pointless nitpicking for the sake of it, and the emotionless, robotic way in which people go through a film and say 'OMG SCIENCE DOESNT WORK THIS WAY' or the repugnant way I have to wade through a tide of totally disproportionate criticism relating to the way female characters behave compared to male character. There is definitely an increasingly large group for whom suspension of disbelief seems to be a struggle, or just somethign that is getting in the way of having a circlejerk trashing of a movie for the sake of having a the circlejerk and revelling in LOL THIS IS SO SHIT LMAO LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE ENJOYING IT, DUM DUMS! The personal attacks on director and actors, etc. It all comes together and reeks of internet nerd fanboyism in the worst way. or just people who are cunts full stop, they're all in the mix.

In particular, siting the RLM videos as an example, I think that was a lot of people's first experience of looking at a film with a critical eye and trying to break it down and analyse what made it good or bad. The only problem with that is that the Plinkett videos only worked so well because the prequels were devoid of almost anything positive beyond the VFX and that somehow that kind of eye should be cast over every film in that manner, with no accounting for conext, size of production, etc. Like no nuance at all applied to anything, just go in there and critique every aspect of a film no matter what the context.

I agree with you that it's not constructive and that in conjunction with budget size, the reception of a film online is probably a big factor in the development of a lot of films now, and it must be having a homogenising effect somewhere, I mean we live in an age of reboots and milking sequels out of anything that manages to do well at the box office. It's more business than art at this point, or thats how it feels to me and that makes me sad. Aint gonna be no more short circuits, aint gonna be no more batteries not included, aint gonna be no more Leons, Big Trouble in Little Chinas, no more Predators (I don't mean the franchise, rip Predator my son, am so sorry for u), no more Citizen Kane's thats fucking fo sho. no more 2001s. At least not in the same way, all those kind of films these days exist in a much smaller space it seems, perhaps with the exception of films made by directors who end up with a rep for producing certain kinds of films well, the Del Toros, Tim Burtons, etc. That's how it feels to me, I could be chatting ultimate breeze though.

I think we're on the same page-ish, but you are much less old and jaded and grumpy than old man Rouj. To your credit.

pantyfire

You know what? I'm going to watch TLJ right now just to fuck with everyone.

Roujin

pantyfire wrote:

You know what? I'm going to hatewatch TLJ right now just to fuck with everyone.

ftfy

TONGUE IN CHEEK HERE MY DUDES, PLS NO FLAMERINO ROUJERINO

pantyfire

How dare you change my post. I'M OFF.

pantyfire

Funnily enough my swipe keyboard placed 'pussy' in that sentence instead of post.

Roujin

I can change that too AYYYYY LMAO

Yossarian

pantyfire wrote:

You know what? I'm going to watch TLJ right now just to fuck with everyone.

Is it on Netflix yet? I may also rewatch it too.

bad_hair_day

There were plenty of sub par films made before and after (insert loved classic) which deserve a critical eye. But it's possible make a big budget film with 'smarts' like Blade Runner 2049 or dumb fun of 'Thor: Ragnarok' in the present, so no RJ and Disney don't get a pass and can shove their subverting expectations where the twin suns don't shine.

Matt_82

pantyfire wrote:

You know what? I'm going to watch TLJ right now just to fuck with ~~everyone~~ myself.

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