ashamed to be a man? - The Bear and Badger

davyK

I don't know about the rest of the posters here, but I'm starting to wonder who the feck isn't a pervert.

It seems that between celebs and priests and the current batch of obscene acts by private citizens - all male - I am beginning to wonder is there something wrong with the way we are wired. OK - some of the celeb situations may be a case of a girl who is a bit too young - 16 going on 21 - being taken advantage of in a situation in which an inebriated arsehole has made a misjudgement - but even discounting the possibility of that there is still a considerable amount of twisted sick fucks being exposed.

Maybe this has always happened and it's now being exposed, perhaps in an alarmist way, which makes it worse, but really - when I am in the company of other people's children I am beginning to feel uncomfortable - wanting to avoid any scenario in which I could be accused of anything. It is a horrible place we are in right now and I feel a bit ashamed of men as a group at the minute.

Skerret

davyK wrote:

Maybe this has always happened and it's now being exposed

My take as well.

Not ashamed, occasionally aghast at the behaviour of the brethren.

davyK

yeah - ashamed isn't strong enough a word. Horrified, sickened - don't want to come across as a Sun reporter though.

GooberTheHat

I think its rare, its just reported more than it ever has been.

JonB

I'm sure there's always been a fair number of rapey men around. Right now though there's also a climate of hysteria and paranoia drummed up by parts of the media that makes it seem worse than it really is. I can't say it's ever made me feel ashamed to be a man, although that atmosphere might be there in some situations.

Tempy

I feel weird being on a bus with rutting 16-18 year olds these days. They're so ridiculous sexualised in comparison to my peers at that age (so 8-9 years ago) when we were early relatively modestly dressed.

Maybe it's perspective that's lending that view, but I don't remember the following:
-Girls in super heavy makeup
-Crop tops and shorts that are way, way, way too short for any age
-Guys with tshirts with half naked/fully naked women on (this in particular I hate)
-So much photo taking going on

And then you've got Snapchat and Instagram where nekkids are rife, people carrying two phones (one personal, one for 'hookups') facebook and twitter allowing some degree of anonymity or distance from responsibility.

I know it's slightly off topic, but I think that generation is going to grow up with some warped expectations and perceptions, and it's the facile nature of interactions on the internet that's partly to blame. Also, as @skerret will attest to, the reddit ideal is surely skewing things for young men.

davyK

It's just I wonder what women, esp. mothers must be thinking in the current environment - false or not. I would have been the type to pat a kid on the head in certain situations - not any more.

The interweb and easily available porn is another thing. It was one thing to find a cache of magazines under a hedge back in the day which, quite another to get access to OTT porn in glorious technicolor - and some genres such as bukake etc. really do make you wonder what the feck effect it would have on hormoned-up young men and women.

[Deleted User]

It's worth bearing in mind that a hell of a lot of the Catholic and Celebrity cases happened 20+ years ago.

One would hope the institutionalised cases would have been on the decline since and hopefully a sharp decline in recent years.

The lone nutters are as difficult to pin down as lone nutters from any extreme crime but quite often have a background of being abused. So once again we can hope that these cases will decline over the years.

The fact that authorities are finally siding with the victims of sexual crime is fantastic but utterly baffling how it hasn't worked that way forever. Those that swept abuse under the carpet for all those years are the ones who should feel guilty.

An openness towards being vocal about sex in all it's forms is something the U.K is terrible at and we would all benefit from not keeping sexual topics behind closed doors, for both the wrong type and the right type of sex.

davyK

Yup....to fix something you first need to admit it's broken - hopefully we are going through the growing pains.

We also need to provide a safe channel for those with initial feelings they know to be wrong to try and deal with the sort of fuck-up who was sent down yesterday.

Tempy

Liveinadive wrote:

An openness towards being vocal about sex in all it's forms is something the U.K is terrible at and we would all benefit from not keeping sexual topics behind closed doors, for both the wrong type and the right type of sex.

A girl I go to uni with works at the Sexual Health clinic and she sometimes does sessions at schools. They had a vagina model and she was showing to the class, and she said "of course, not everyone's looks like this, mine certainly doesn't." A few weeks later she found out that the teacher had raised a formal complaint with her, saying it wasn't decent.

davyK

The model or the comment?

[Deleted User]

That is the exact attitude that needs to change.
She mentioned she had a vagina, like 50% of the population do, why should that warrant a formal complaint?

(not actually asking you Tempy)

igorgetmeabrain

Did she get it out and show everyone?

Tempy

@livinadivina Precisely, and more importantly telling kids that "Hey it's ok if yours doesn't look like what they do on a Playboy picture." which is worth massive kudos.

If I wasn't at work i'd find the entry on Stoya's blog where she complained to a publishing company that had photoshopped her area on the cover of one of their DVDs and there's also a bit on one of the latest Guardian agony aunt things where a reader has written in because "my Boyfriend won't give me oral or look at my vagina because thinks it is disgusting and 'doesn't look like the ones in porn.'" imagine the factors that have to cumulate to bring someone to write that

davyK wrote:

The model or the comment?

Heh, I'm derailing your thread also, apologies.

[Deleted User]

Why doesn't that girl from the agony page just tell him to fuck off?
Why do women put up with these cretinous pricks?

Tempy

Clearly there are other issues there, and I've probably not given the full context but yeah, that's people bred on a diet of porn etc. I've heard other similar stuff that's made me recoil from people i've actually known.

Skerret

Tempy wrote:

I feel weird being on a bus with rutting 16-18 year olds these days. They're so ridiculous sexualised in comparison to my peers at that age (so 8-9 years ago) when we were early relatively modestly dressed. Maybe it's perspective that's lending that view, but I don't remember the following: -Girls in super heavy makeup -Crop tops and shorts that are way, way, way too short for any age -Guys with tshirts with half naked/fully naked women on (this in particular I hate) -So much photo taking going on And then you've got Snapchat and Instagram where nekkids are rife, people carrying two phones (one personal, one for 'hookups') facebook and twitter allowing some degree of anonymity or distance from responsibility. I know it's slightly off topic, but I think that generation is going to grow up with some warped expectations and perceptions, and it's the facile nature of interactions on the internet that's partly to blame. Also, as @skerret will attest to, the reddit ideal is surely skewing things for young men.

I do attest to this, irl too. I'll hang around the main uni thoroughfare waiting for kids to turn up for a lecture and that bus demographic is multiplied many times on campus. One catches some seriously banal conversations. The girls are all cleavage-and-leggings sexual confidence or mousy timidity, the boys mainly look bewildered. The ones that don't look predatory. It staggers me the number of females getting about in heels and spray on skirts in what is becoming pretty icy weather. Jesus christ when did i get this old

LarryDavid

I'm guessing longterm exposure to hardcore material would cause a certain warping of sensibilities, a deadening of the senses and a desire to look for more extreme materials to get aroused by. It can't be healthy, I'm no moral guardian of taste and decency but being exposed to so much hardcore filth before you're old enough to fully comprehend it isn't a very healthy situation for young men. I know teen boys are going to wack off anyway, but there is a difference between a stolen glance at the old 'tennis girl scratching her arse' poster and scouring the Internet for full-on hardcore grot throughout six-weeks of summer holidays. There were studies done on longterm porno fans who found they couldn't get aroused unless it was to pornography.

I'm sure the psychological effects run deeper than people would like to admit, the subject of teen-boy smuttiness having always been something of a joke.

I think I've gone off at a tangent here, and as Live said all the recent cases have been perpetrated by men of a much older vintage so all these theories are irrelevant, it is slightly worrying though. Not to tar everyone with the same brush.

I don't feel ashamed to be a man just because some nutters who happen to be men have perpetrated (admittedly horrible) crimes.

EDIT: Spelling 'n shit - I'm on my phone.

Skerret

Tempy wrote:

Liveinadive wrote:

An openness towards being vocal about sex in all it's forms is something the U.K is terrible at and we would all benefit from not keeping sexual topics behind closed doors, for both the wrong type and the right type of sex.

A girl I go to uni with works at the Sexual Health clinic and she sometimes does sessions at schools. They had a vagina model and she was showing to the class, and she said "of course, not everyone's looks like this, mine certainly doesn't." A few weeks later she found out that the teacher had raised a formal complaint with her, saying it wasn't decent.

That's fucked. Brings to mind the nun from Boardwalk Empire's women's health clinic.

beano

GooberTheHat wrote:

I think its rare, its just reported more than it ever has been.

It's as popular as it was in the victorian ages, heck even earlier. It's just that now we have better mousetraps.

I was thinking, as the whole "ISPs should make it more difficult to get X" but then I am thinking what if you're a citizen from a place in germany and you're 18 and you're swapping photos and having phonesex with your legally 14year gf.

I understand it's to protect younger members of society but the line, culturally and cross continents is wuzzy.

I haven't thought about this much, but I can see massive complications in where the line of acceptable lies and to whom it applies.

What if the person in the above is a diplomat of Germany? Etc.

It's a mindbomb, I'm shocked as anyone yet I am glad appalling behaviour isn't going unpunished.

davyK

Tempy wrote:

@livinadivina Precisely, and more importantly telling kids that "Hey it's ok if yours doesn't look like what they do on a Playboy picture." which is worth massive kudos.

If I wasn't at work i'd find the entry on Stoya's blog where she complained to a publishing company that had photoshopped her area on the cover of one of their DVDs and there's also a bit on one of the latest Guardian agony aunt things where a reader has written in because "my Boyfriend won't give me oral or look at my vagina because thinks it is disgusting and 'doesn't look like the ones in porn.'" imagine the factors that have to cumulate to bring someone to write that

davyK wrote:

The model or the comment?

Heh, I'm derailing your thread also, apologies.

nah....all relevant. That girl who made the comment about what her's looked like (if you'll pardon the expression) should be applauded...it is exactly the sort of thing kids that age need to hear - that the airbrushed, bleached, pumped up organs that they might see via various channels are not real.

There seems to be a new branch of porn centred around men who appear to produce an awful lot of fluid - can't imagine what a girl would think of that , or of a wee lad worrying because his "wee lad" doesn't produce the same amount...funny to older and wiser heads maybe , but not to those who have nothing or little to compare.

GooberTheHat

Posted this in the misogyny thread but probably fits here to.

GooberTheHat wrote:

Tempy

Liveinadive wrote:

Why doesn't that girl from the agony page just tell him to fuck off?
Why do women put up with these cretinous pricks?

I was brave and found it here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/boyfriend-says-my-vagina-is-repulsive

I_R

There was a BBC journalist on Radio 2 at dinner time, actually discussing violent crime, but this stuff was included. His theory was that we actually tolerate these things far less these days. There's almost a hysterical tone to it, but we certainly turn a blind eye to far less as a society at the moment.

davyK

Tempy wrote:

Liveinadive wrote:

Why doesn't that girl from the agony page just tell him to fuck off?
Why do women put up with these cretinous pricks?

I was brave and found it here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/boyfriend-says-my-vagina-is-repulsive

interesting...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/25/online-porn-facts-fantasy

Tempy

Yeah it's not going to turn kids into monsters, but enough porn ends in fairly degrading circumstances that I can't help but think it has some effect. Also the industry's masterful re-appropriation of 'amateur' to mean 'un-tanned, natural, less manicured' girls blurs the line a little into real life for a lot of folk I'd hazard.

mistercrayon

The op gets it right, but you'll notice another thing that connects those people- its a position of power that is abused too. There is more than being a man that causes hateful things to happen.

fullspectrum

nope

beano

Tempy

Hehe, always had a soft spot for that image.

tin_robot

The idea that it's always happened and only now is being exposed is pretty much right I think. Attitudes to sex have changed a lot, as has people's willingness to talk about it. The current "porn is the norm" culture is certainly pretty fucked up, but it was arguably more screwed up back when no-one talked about it.

It's worth remembering, for instance, that Marital Rape only became illegal in England 1991. To me that's absolutely shocking, but it gives you some idea of the prevailing attitudes to women held until very recently. Any culture that supports the idea that your wife is your property and you can do what you want with her is likely to have equally bizarre attitudes to women, and sadly, girls, in general.

I know I see an inherently skewed sample, but through work I hear a lot of stories about the horrific things blokes do to women (often long after the event). The vast majority isn't reported in my experience, and indeed is often regarded almost as normal. ("Well, yes, but everyone did that then didn't they?" "Well, I was young, I didn't really know what he was doing..."). I can't go into specifics for obvious reasons, but yeah, I'm often sickened by what I hear.

But it does seem to be changing. A bit. There's still the issue of men who think they own women, but most women seem to at least know to push back against it, and to get help. There is at least an open public conversation saying "this is wrong".

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