Facewon wrote:

Gist is some Muppet reckons dudes having a thing for Asian girls needs a philosophical defense.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Diluted Dante wrote:

So what is offered that's not psychological? : "If your child has gender dysphoria and they've reached puberty, they could be treated with gonadotrophin-releasing hormone (GnRH) analogues. These are synthetic (man-made) hormones that suppress the hormones naturally produced by the body."

so they are hormones then, you concede as much- so called puberty blockers is a form of hormone treatment. Its effect isn't to swing the body one way or t'other, but it is injecting kids with hormones.

So the hormone blockers we've mentioned previously. You can debate if this is something that should be given, but it's deeply unhelpful to conflate it with cross sex hormones or surgery.

Where does Linehan conflate hormone blockers with cross sex hormones or surgery? You quoted him yourself, he used the word "drugs therapy" Are you saying hormone blockers aren't drugs? You concede they are synthetics hormones. Have you looked up the side effects?

“There are lots of gender non-conforming children who may not be trans and may grow up to be gay adults, but who are being told by an extreme, misogynist ideology, that they were born in the wrong body, and anyone who disagrees with that diagnosis is a bigot.”

Who is he referring to here? People on Twitter? Treatment at GIC isn't telling people they are born in the wrong body, it's to determine if they do in fact have gender dysphoria or not. Many don't. As previously noted: "the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty."

He's not disputing the NHS advice. I take it he is saying that - yes on twitter, and elsewhere, so-called trans activists have monopolised the conversation with unrelenting zeal. And these people do say people are born into the wrong body and that can be determined in childhood. As we noted, Mermaid UK did advertise a fast track service to a German doctor who offers fast track hormone blockers, so the worry is mermaids UK, presumably, are potentially helping worried and vulnerable parents to go outside our jurisdiction. Making the NHS advice redundant.

“It’s especially dangerous for teenage girls – the numbers referred to gender clinics have shot up – because society, in a million ways, is telling girls they are worthless. Of course they look for an escape hatch.”

Why have numbers shot up? He states as fact that it's because society is telling teen girls they are worthless. Is this the case? It certainly doesn't seem like it's a new phenomena. But the way the medical establishment deal with gender issues and the availability of services certainly has increased. And transmen, whilst still often overlooked in debate are being acknowledged much more than in the past, including by the medical establishment.

Thanks for this, it is helping me make an important point. A real feminist's interpretation might be that society is effectively enforcing its own sexist social norms on what a woman is and ought to be by encouraging young girls who do not fall within the range of so-called "female" gender identity to call themselves men, and done early enough, to use medicine to present as men. We are at the heart of why some radical feminists have reacted so adversely to being told they just not and cannot question this movement. BECAUSE THE CENTRAL MESSAGE FEMINISM IS THAT GENDER IS A SOCIETAL CONSTRUCT TO OPPRESS WOMEN, AND WOMEN SHOULD RESIST IT. I am not a radical feminist so I think if someone wants to be a man then so be it. But I understand, on an intellectual level, their argument. I don't think you do, nor do most "Twitter" feminists who daily reinforce a notion of gender that real feminist's dispute and resist.

“The normal experience of puberty is the first time we all experience gender dysphoria. It’s natural. But to tell confused kids who might every second be feeling uncomfortable in their own skin that they are trapped in the wrong body? It’s an obscenity. It’s like telling anorexic kids they need liposuction.”

This appears to be conflating gender dysphoria with people not liking their body. Its not the same thing, although it's possible to have both. But again, it's appears to be under the impression that every kid who goes into a GIC is told they're in the wrong body, which is just flat out wrong. I wouldn't quite put it as the best approach being one that doubts and is skeptical, because that sounds quite negative, and a negative approach can easily make things worse. But a slow, careful considered approach doesn't have those same negative connotations, and I think is what you are getting at. The thing is, that's pretty much the approach the NHS takes. Obviously individuals within the system will differ. You might run in to people who try to block access, or people who will speed things along a bit quicker than most. But that's no different to any other area of health.

I read Linehan here to be opposed to the ideological penetration of gender dysphoria advocates / advisers by a particular virulent, zealous and defensive minority. He may well be wrong altogether and he is almost certainly myopic /overstating. But as I've said in posts passing, that is more likely a function of his being demonised / shouted down - that dialectic, like elsewhere, always results in a lack of measure. See Palestinians shouting death to Israel/ throw them into the sea. An extreme analogy for sure- but are they wrong to claim that Israel has oppressed them and stolen their lands? No. They've been pushed to the extreme by this dialectic of conflict, just as extreme Zionists have in Israel. A sane person tries to get to the hear of the matter. She doesn't say "I agree with Likud" or "I'm for Hamas". She recognises the injustice and the trickiness of the situation and argues for a sensible dialogue, not an extreme one.

Treatment at GIC isn't telling people they are born in the wrong body, it's to determine if they do in fact have gender dysphoria or not. Many don't. As previously noted: "the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty."

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

I had in mind this spectacular copy and paste from Dante of some website, if people don't want to read the post.

Treatment at GIC isn't telling people they are born in the wrong body, it's to determine if they do in fact have gender dysphoria or not. Many don't. As previously noted: "the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria don't have the condition once they reach puberty."

“There are lots of gender non-conforming children who may not be trans and may grow up to be gay adults, but who are being told by an extreme, misogynist ideology, that they were born in the wrong body, and anyone who disagrees with that diagnosis is a bigot.”

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

Here's another egregious example of the problem. Another nutcase, vexatious person shouting for attention..
https://twitter.com/anyabyke/status/1085243542543499264?s=20 https://mirandayardley.com/en/jonathan-yaniv-is-a-predator/ This guy has mental health issues, or is a pedophile with a tampon /period fetish abusing the trans equality movement to access female spaces. And people voicing their concerns on twitter are getting banned.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

You'll note one of the links is to a FB post where he complains about immigrant women, who he doesn't seem to like much at all. But he is ok with walking into a wax place and ask a Muslim female attendant for a wax, and suing her when she says no https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.dailycaller.com/2018/10/23/opinion-report-from-canada

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

What's Graham Linehan got to do with this?

Kara_Jane_Adams wrote:

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

What's Graham Linehan got to do with this?

Because he never misses an opportunity to spread his particular brand of hate.

Armitage_Shankburn wrote:

nick_md wrote:

What does this BC person have to do with the wider discussion on gender/trans issues?

It is eminently obvious from my post. Clues: twitter bans, YouTube removals, businesses shut, jobs lost, lives ruined. How can you possibly miss it?

Yossarian wrote:

nick_md wrote:

What is his stake in this? Who has asked him to get involved? Is he a woman, or trans? Maybe he's just a supporter of women's rights, which is fair enough. But if he is, why is he so against trans women's rights?

He has stated that it comes from supporting lesbian friends who share his POV.