I just can't believe it's that simple though.

I don't think they care about providing a "good" service. If you want a good service you can work hard and pay for it yourself.

Funkstain wrote:

I have no doubt about that at all, and I'm no conspiracy theorist. What I want to know is whether anyone can shed some light on exactly why they would want to achieve these goals. By which I mean, if we assume that they have put real thought into how healthcare and education can be well provided, how did they come to the conclusions they have? Or is it mere market ideology, an assumption that private companies will naturally provide more efficient services? This seems almost child-like in terms of complexity, like "this is what my Mum told me so it must be right" with no need to refer to history, contemporary examples of the results of these policies, research etc. Is this really what we're fighting against, an army of unreasoning child-people who believe unflinchingly in a basic economic ideology? How can you even argue with children?

 
It's a caricature with a large element of truth in it. Tory policy on health and education (and I'm just a man who reads the papers talking here, I don't work in either sector) seems to be all about prepping the sectors for being open to private investment. It's behind their free schools ideas (which is all to do with wrestling control of education away from LEAs) and it's behind their market-led alterations to GP surgeries and 7 day a week cover. 

I think saying the Tories don't care is harsh. I'm sure David Cameron probably cares in some very abstract way, but such is his ideological bent that he really doesn't view something like the provision of decent education to poor parts of the country as something the government should be organising. The way they see it, they should be putting the framework in place to empower people to make their own choices. I remember hearing about Thatcher's view of her time in office and her big regret was that society as a whole didn't step up to replace the industries and services she was eviscerating, as if people were just going to come together and start organising things spontaneously. Her ghost is still haunting Cameron's thoughts - you can see it with the Big Society stuff.  It's all about this notion of self-sufficiency, and puling yourself up by your bootstraps which is just intellectually bankrupt given how everything is absolutely gamed against you if you're poor. It's hard being self-sufficient without decent education, life opportunities and continual financial pressure just to keep afloat. The Tories (as a mass) simply don't appreciate that people want their public services to be owned by them and accountable to them.

GooberTheHat wrote:

I don't think they care about providing a "good" service. If you want a good service you can work hard and pay for it yourself.

I fear that this is the summation that comes closest to the truth of why they want privatisation, hell or high water. The childish assumption that boils down to 'if you don't earn it you don't deserve it' and "Fuck your need, it's not my problem".

Funkstain wrote:

What I would ask is: for those policies that seem insane to them, can you think of any justifications (beyond the usual tribal political ones)? I mean I like to think there are ideological differences rather than shadowy people actively trying to ruin public health and education, but perhaps I'm naive.

I had a long answer here, but deleted it.  Quick version is that it's a mixture of ideology, greed, incompetence and naivety depending upon who you're talking about.  Where it's down to ideology, then in health at least, it's primarily a belief that market forces result in improved quality, greater efficiency and less complacency.  (I don't agree, obviously.)

As Goobs and Grem have already intimated the other ideological element (if you can call it that) within the current Government is this deeply insidious notion that we should only be providing services for "good hard working people" - an abhorrent piece of jingoism that is obviously ridiculous when discussing healthcare (or anything else, but you get my point).

Agreed, it just baffles me how people can be so incompetent.

This is the least baffling thing.

Gremill wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

anyone who has parents paying for education has precisely zero footing for making statements on deserving of anything.

Well, precisely, but it's never stopped their like from doing it.

Well that's a just a bit of a broad statement. Many people like to turn their noses up at kids who benefitted from private education. My parents paid for mine. They continued to do so through university. I worked alongside them for many years of my education.

When I was young, my parents thought the best education locally was through a private school. They worked fucking hard to earn enough income to out two kids through their primary and secondary education there. And we're not talking bankers or directors of anything, just two people working most of the hours a day gives them to keep a takeaway going.

Not all private schools are Eton but it all gets lumped in for the sake of a convenient target of hate. By all means, hate the Tories for their warped views on how to run the country but don't tar us all with the same brush.

handsofblue wrote:

Gremill wrote:

mistercrayon wrote:

anyone who has parents paying for education has precisely zero footing for making statements on deserving of anything.

Well, precisely, but it's never stopped their like from doing it.

Well that's a just a bit of a broad statement. Many people like to turn their noses up at kids who benefitted from private education. My parents paid for mine. They continued to do so through university. I worked alongside them for many years of my education. When I was young, my parents thought the best education locally was through a private school. They worked fucking hard to earn enough income to out two kids through their primary and secondary education there. And we're not talking bankers or directors of anything, just two people working most of the hours a day gives them to keep a takeaway going. Not all private schools are Eton but it all gets lumped in for the sake of a convenient target of hate. By all means, hate the Tories for their warped views on how to run the country but don't tar us all with the same brush.

It was a wonky way of putting it, but my point was essentially it's difficult to take from anyone coming from advantage that is unearnt (i.e. simply by virtue of being born to wealthy parents) to require all things from others to be earnt.

What about the learning environment and the desire/drive of the pupils in one compared to the other?

The only reason I mention the 4 kids is that Merchiston Castle school, the private school next to us (with its own deer for hunting on the grounds - no joke) put out a press release about having 2 kids go to Oxbridge that year so obviously it was great. We lolled.

When the actual qualifications are the same coz they're governed by the same body, an A1 at private school is the same as one at comprehensive. Most comprehensives will also offer Baccalaureate or equivalent if there's a real need for a pupil to have it.

@mister I understand the sentiment and agree fully with it but a lot of the time it is put shonkily and I can't be doing with being lumped into Torie privilege.

In terms of actually being in a private school, I cant say my experience was the best. I was mediocre in most things and no one paid much attention to those that weren't oxbridge material.

To do well in a private school you really have to buy into the institution (test well, do well in extra curricular or sports, get in well with others who are the same), which is hard to do when the institution pays you very little regard.

I've gone off into a personal tangent to a policy argument though. Essentially, I don't think private schools are all that and there are plenty of good or even great state schools. "The media" pays too much attention to holding up the poor performing schools as an example of how shit our schools. The only thing that I can think of that celebrated our education system in the last few years is Educating Yorkshire.

@handsofblue: Apologies if that's what it read like (I realise that it was what it read like) but my sentiment was the same as crayons.

Gremill wrote:

@handsofblue: Apologies if that's what it read like (I realise that it was what it read like) but my sentiment was the same as crayons.

It's all good. I thought that was probably what was meant here but an awful lot of the time it isn't given a second thought. It gets a bit annoying after a while but that not a fault that should be laid on either of you. More the fault of that divisive rhetoric that gets thrown about at this time of year.

Another private school Percy becoming a politician, eh?