Racist - The Bear and Badger

Yossarian

I don’t have a Reddit account, so can’t follow that link, but I think the description’s enough.

Thanks for the explanation, I think I may have heard of this referred to as Orange Order marches or something?

But yeah, it’s a mess.

Is there more integration between communities in NI these days? My understanding was that everything was quite segregated for a long time, is that starting to break down at all?

hunk

Fucking Dutchies eh?

regmcfly

Yossarian wrote:

I don’t have a Reddit account, so can’t follow that link, but I think the description’s enough.

Thanks for the explanation, I think I may have heard of this referred to as Orange Order marches or something?

But yeah, it’s a mess.

Is there more integration between communities in NI these days? My understanding was that everything was quite segregated for a long time, is that starting to break down at all?

I was over 2 years ago and whilst it feels much calmer now, there's still pavements painted red white and blue or green white and gold. Still a lot of flags up. If you are in the centre, as we were in Belfast, it feels normal, but as soon as you travel out there's still tribalism.

Davy is probably the best person to answer tho

dynamiteReady

davyK wrote:

Matt_82 wrote:

It's his style.

Matt_82 wrote:

Davy looks like a plantation owner.

Have a recipe for fried chicken I think might be popular....

Fucking hell. Can't unsee!

Paul the sparky

Frosty wrote:

I'm surprised you have any pals.

Lol

Yossarian wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

If I ever said anything in here that could be construed as problematic, I’d hope that would be the first response I’d receive.

I'd hope that my pals weren't breaking their necks to misconstrue what I'm saying

They’re clearly not if they aren’t accusing you of anything.

We've covered this before, our opinion on it differs, no need to go round in circles

Diluted Dante wrote:

Paul the sparky wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

If I ever said anything in here that could be construed as problematic, I’d hope that would be the first response I’d receive.

I'd hope that my pals weren't breaking their necks to misconstrue what I'm saying

Like you are with Frosty you mean?

Well, maybe if I was the only one who thought that it was a bit off, but I'm not

Paul the sparky

I wonder if it's not what I said that's the bother, but the manner in which I said it.

Like, if I was to pussy foot around it instead of saying straight up what I meant it would be more palatable?

"Frosty, I don't mean to challenge what you said, but..." And went on to challenge it anyway?

Funkstain

No it's because you have a chip on your shoulder about people you perceive to be smugly pseudo intellectual and like calling them out on it with "plain speak" and in this case you're just fucking wrong about it.

Or, as you say, your opinion on whether Frosty and I and others were being virtue signalling arseholes differs from, surprisingly, ours, and that's about fucking that isn't it?

Funkstain

I mean there's no need to over complicate this with long words and things like that from books and what not

Funkstain

Thought this was quite a neat visual guide to some of the stuff being discussed:

https://racismscale.weebly.com

Paul the sparky

Dunno about the smugly pseudo intellectual chip on my shoulder patter, projecting a bit there Funk? I didn't mention anything about over complicating things either, but cheers for that too.

I deffo feel that Frosty had a shiny new woke badge on his lovely woke hat after his 30 minute training course and was looking for an opportunity to show it off to everyone, whether it applied to Davy's post or not. It's ok to disagree

Brooks

I want to ban anyone who uses 'woke' in any context or tone. It's total gammonia at this point.

dynamiteReady

Funkstain wrote:

Thought this was quite a neat visual guide to some of the stuff being discussed: https://racismscale.weebly.com

Using a chart to determine if someone genuinely feels a certain way?
I'm telling you, we're overcomplicating something really simple here.

If you ask me, Davy's post looked to me, like an attempt to open up a discussion about an important topic.

Then out of nowhere subtle questions were asked about certain aspects of his post, which in turn guided the subject away from the implied acceptance of racial harassment (directly relevant), to 'whether you'd hire one of them, innit?' (important, but not directly relevant to the original post).

Putting Sparky's motivations aside, can you see why Davy might be pissed, and why I might be pissed?

dynamiteReady

Paul the sparky wrote:

I deffo feel that Frosty had a shiny new woke badge on his lovely woke hat after his 30 minute training course and was looking for an opportunity to show it off to everyone...

Yeah. I get off at this stop.

davyK

Yossarian wrote:

But yeah, it’s a mess. Is there more integration between communities in NI these days? My understanding was that everything was quite segregated for a long time, is that starting to break down at all?

It's a mess alright. It's hard to explain too.

We bump along here but communities are still separate. There are physical barriers between communities in parts of Belfast. The big ones are walls, but there are alleygates that are closed after certain times to prevent movement. Belfast Council has tried to work with communities to remove the gates but the locals want them as it makes them feel safer. Such is the state of affairs.

We bump along until there is an incident. An IRA or UVF funeral. Annual marches such as 12th July. Then the fault lines show. The NI Protocol is one such "incident" that has caused tension. It's also 100 years of the creation of NI so that is poured into the mix too. There is also a row at the minute about Irish Language legislation.

We still, by and large, have religious apartheid in our education system. We have Catholic and Protestant schools. To my mind, that is at the core of our problems.

Loyalist celebrations consist of what could be considered anti-social behaviour when done irresponsibly.

Bonfires. These are lit on 11th July. Unregulated , huge towering structures built in some cases far too close to houses. The mess that is left behind - a burned circle of black (sometimes in a car park which has damaged the surface) surrounded by the detritrous of the drinking and general celebrations. This has to be tidied up by the Council. Fire appliances have to attend certain fires to hose down nearby buildings while the fire is burning. When in parks there have been times when the Council has to remove swings etc to prevent them being damaged by the fire.

There is a 17 yo with 40% burns in hospital at the minute as a result of an accident involving petrol on Sunday night at a fire.

Parades. Some of these adhere to long established routes that have now become contentious because of the change in community alignment. So-called interface areas are in some cases part of a parade route. Cue protests, jeering etc which can get out of hand and escalate to riot. Again the aftermath of even a peaceful parade is a shameful mess of discarded cans, bottles etc that again - need cleaned up by the Council.

Flags. Territories are marked out by flags on streetlights. Again. Putting these at interface areas causes problems as they are seen as threats. These are a particular bugbear of mine. They are a fucking eyesore even when it is just the Union Flag or the flag of N.Ireland. Often paramiltary flags are on display too, making it akin to gangs marking territories. They are also up for far too long - until well after September in some places.

Most of the bonfires and parades go without a hitch and are sensibly organised by local people. There are hundreds of them around NI. Most of the contention is in Belfast where paramilitaries get involved.

I'm detailing these loyalist side activities because it is topical but also because I am a Protestant and on the Unionist side so I don't to appear to be biased. It's always better to criticise ones own "side".

The nationalists have their bonfires too in August though nowhere near the same scale. Their specialty seems to be paramilitary funerals at the minute. All the trappings - one last year in the middle of COVID caused an outrage when thousands were on the street in what could be read as paramilitary show of strength with men lining the streets in pseudo-uniform. In the past we have had rifle volleys over coffins draped in Irish tricolors but that tends not to happen now (or at least I'm not aware of it happening)

These behaviours are tolerated. The police are aware of them and monitor them from afar.

Reason being to intervene would cause a riot.

In other words, we have mob rule.

Most people would rather parades stuck to non contentious areas. Bonfires were regulated. No flags apart from privately displayed ones. But people are afraid to speak out because of the chances of personal ramifications.

There is far more to this than what I write above. Perceived inequalities in policing is a particular area of tension. Their response to different situations create tensions as one side believes the other gets an easier time of it.

We keep electing from a polarised position. DUP and Sinn Fein are the opposite ends of the nationalist/loyalist dimension, and the socialist/conservative dimension. Yet they form a coalition government.

We have plenty of moderate parties but they don't attract the vote. Electioneering is reduced to scaremongering on both sides and as far as I can see regular incidents based on orange and green tensions are responded to by incendiary comments, keeping voters distracted from the fact that these parties are essentially incompetent when it comes running the place.

Funkstain

dynamiteReady wrote:

Funkstain wrote:

Thought this was quite a neat visual guide to some of the stuff being discussed: https://racismscale.weebly.com

Using a chart to determine if someone genuinely feels a certain way? I'm telling you, we're overcomplicating something really simple here. If you ask me, Davy's post looked to me, like an attempt to open up a discussion about an important topic. Then out of nowhere subtle questions were asked about certain aspects of his post, which in turn guided the subject away from the implied acceptance of racial harassment (directly relevant), to 'whether you'd hire one of them, innit?' (important, but not directly relevant to the original post). Putting Sparky's motivations aside, can you see why Davy might be pissed, and why I might be pissed?

literally no, but then I'm usually confused as to whether you're deliberately or unintentionally missing various points to make a different point

Yossarian

Insinuations of virtue-signalling are the worst argument. Essentially saying that you can’t reasonably object to what was being said, so instead you’ll impugn someone’s motives for doing so. As if you can have any idea what those motivations are. Terrible.

regmcfly

davyK wrote:

Yossarian wrote:

But yeah, it’s a mess. Is there more integration between communities in NI these days? My understanding was that everything was quite segregated for a long time, is that starting to break down at all?

It's a mess alright. It's hard to explain too.

We bump along here but communities are still separate. There are physical barriers between communities in parts of Belfast. The big ones are walls, but there are alleygates that are closed after certain times to prevent movement. Belfast Council has tried to work with communities to remove the gates but the locals want them as it makes them feel safer. Such is the state of affairs.

We bump along until there is an incident. An IRA or UVF funeral. Annual marches such as 12th July. Then the fault lines show. The NI Protocol is one such "incident" that has caused tension. It's also 100 years of the creation of NI so that is poured into the mix too. There is also a row at the minute about Irish Language legislation.

We still, by and large, have religious apartheid in our education system. We have Catholic and Protestant schools. To my mind, that is at the core of our problems.

Loyalist celebrations consist of what could be considered anti-social behaviour when done irresponsibly.

Bonfires. These are lit on 11th July. Unregulated , huge towering structures built in some cases far too close to houses. The mess that is left behind - a burned circle of black (sometimes in a car park which has damaged the surface) surrounded by the detritrous of the drinking and general celebrations. This has to be tidied up by the Council. Fire appliances have to attend certain fires to hose down nearby buildings while the fire is burning. When in parks there have been times when the Council has to remove swings etc to prevent them being damaged by the fire.

There is a 17 yo with 40% burns in hospital at the minute as a result of an accident involving petrol on Sunday night at a fire.

Parades. Some of these adhere to long established routes that have now become contentious because of the change in community alignment. Interface areas quite are now part of them. Cue protests, jeering etc which can get out of hand. Again the aftermath of even a peaceful parade is a shameful mess of discarded cans, bottles etc that again - need cleaned up by the Council.

Flags. Territories are marked out by flags on streetlights. Again. Putting these at interface areas causes problems as they are seen as threats. These are a particular bugbear of mine. They are a fucking eyesore even when it is just the Union Flag or the flag of N.Ireland. Often paramiltary flags are on display too, making it akin to gangs marking territories. They are also up for far too long - until well after September in some places.

Most of the bonfires and parades go without a hitch. There are hundreds of them around NI. Most of the contention is in Belfast.

The nationalists have there behaviours too though not on the same scale. Their specialty seems to be paramilitary funerals at the minute. All the trappings - one last year in the middle of COVID caused an outrage when thousands were on the street in what could be read as a show of paramilitary show of strength. In the past we have had rifle volleys over coffins draped in Irish tricolors but that tends not to happen now (or at least I'm not aware of it happen)

These behaviours are tolerated. The police are aware of them and monitor them from afar.

Reason being to intervene would cause a riot.

In other words, we have mob rule.

Most people would rather parades stuck to non contentious areas. Bonfires were regulated. No flags apart from privately displayed ones. But people are afraid to speak out because of the chances of personal ramifications.

We keep electing from a polarised position. DUP and Sinn Fein are the opposite ends of the nationalist/loyalist dimension, and the socialist/conservative dimension. Yet they form a coalition government.

We have plenty of moderate parties but they don't attract the vote. Electioneering is reduced to scaremongering on both sides and as far as I can see regular incidents based on orange and green tensions keep about voters distracted from the fact that these parties are essentially incompetent when it comes running the place.

Huge post with lots of interesting stuff, but I guess the thing I wanted to pull out is there are still Catholic and and "Non Dom" schools in Scotland (I work in the latter even though I have a qualification to teach RE (NOT Rmps) because I wanted to stay in Glasgow) and Glasgow still seems to be the biggest divide 9f these in our country. There are very few Catholic schools here in Edinburgh, but a tonne in Glasgow where, shock, Celtic and Rangers live.

Funkstain

I mean let's break your latest post down to help you understand, if you care, why I don't get your point(s):

"if you ask me, Davy's post looked to me, like an attempt to open up a discussion about an important topic"

I don't think anyone is arguing with this, though I'm not sure it was an attempt to open up a discussion, more posting about an self-observation he felt worthy of attention. so far so good

"then out of nowhere"

or then a response to that post on a forum...

"subtle questions were asked about certain aspects of this post"

bit cryptic this no? wasn't it more straightforwardly a reaction to Davy's claim to be colour blind, and some information / discussion about how the term can be problematic? Did it overtly criticise Davy? Did it imply he is in fact a massive racist despite his claim that he feels progression due to not noticing the colour of the penalty takers? No of course not. erm

"guided the subject aware from the implied acceptance of racial harassment"

You've lost me there mate. What implied acceptance?? By whom?

"'whether you'd hire one of them, innit?'"

This was a development of the conversation about structural and cultural racism, which a bunch of individuals claiming "colour blindness" can do much to obscure and deny. It was relevant to the original post in so far as it was a discussion about the potential issues with the term "colour blind". I'm glad you agree this is important but I'm not sure how you can argue it's irrelevant.

"Can you see why Davy might be pissed, and why I might be pissed?"

If you mean drunk then sure. But if you mean pissed off then literally absolutely not.

Funkstain

Yossarian wrote:

Insinuations of virtue-signalling are the worst argument. Essentially saying that you can’t reasonably object to what was being said, so instead you’ll impugn someone’s motives for doing so. As if you can have any idea what those motivations are. Terrible.

this is a different way of arguing Paul has a chip on his shoulder imo

"I don't like that this guy thinks he's better than everyone because he's thought about this a bit. Everything he's thinking about it bollocks and clearly only to demonstrate his self-claimed intellectual and/or moral superiority over me Davy. I'd better call him out on it instead of engaging"

kneecap

The nationalists who do bonfires have to be the single dumbest motherfuckers in the world.

davyK

@regmcfly - education. Answer to a lot of things, eh?

dynamiteReady

For you Funk:

davyK wrote:

You know. Being a citizen of N.Ireland and never seeing a black person until I was a teenager, and being the age that I am ,I have harboured fears of me being racist, sub-consciously at least. However after hearing this morning about the racist abuse hurled at 3 young men because they are black and missed a penalty (though I suspect the latter excuse is only a cover), it occurred to me that I hadn't noticed that those 3 young men were black. It simply didn't even register with me. So I take some comfort from that.

The succeeding 2 replies:

Facewon wrote:

Channel 7 out here noticed. Because of course

Interesting point that. An Australian newspaper ran an appalling headline on the story.

And then:

Frosty wrote:

Colour blindness is also a form of racism if that helps.

"Colour blindness" is a learnt behaviour where we pretend not to notice race. It relies on the premise that race-based differences aren't an issue but ignores the reality of systemic racism.

I'm not accusing you here but I think it's something to be aware of when saying things like that. This definition is taken from the 30 minute training course I did at work. The actual abuse is horrific. Marcus Rashford and the others do so much good that it's heartbreaking that people are just waiting for an excuse to turn on them.

And from that point onwards, most of the conversation was about unconscious bias.
Probably because some people feel more comfortable with that.

I'm not sure.

But to me, it felt like some people were ignoring the more important point. That we expected racist behaviour in the wake of a 'relatively' meaningless event.

Instead, we've spent a load of posts:

- Attacking someone for unconscious bias, when they in fact had demonstrated the complete opposite (fwiw),

- Discussing the merits of HR training courses,

- Have hinted, perhaps, that in some circumstances, we should expect widespread racial harassment, while also refusing to support innocuous efforts to condemn such behaviour (petition)

Yes. I've been making a list.

Tbh, it's not the worst we've had on here. But that's what I've gotten from this thread on this subject.

Paul the sparky

Yossarian wrote:

Insinuations of virtue-signalling are the worst argument. Essentially saying that you can’t reasonably object to what was being said, so instead you’ll impugn someone’s motives for doing so. As if you can have any idea what those motivations are. Terrible.

Why object to Davy's post? Especially with the colour blind stuff. That wasn't the gist of his post, so posting that was going off on a tangent. Why?

Davy wasn't saying "I don't see colour, just people", if he was then it certainly warranted a mention. If anything Davy was admitting to seeing colour, as everyone does, but it registered so low down in importance to him that it was deep dark basement level subconscious stuff, probably right next to where the racism sits in just about everyone. His post seemed like a healthy one for discussion to me, Frosty's didn't.

As for the motivation stuff, all I had to do was mention the word woke and all sorts of right wing twat stuff came out to greet it. How's that work?

Tempy

Were people attacking Davy or just having a conversation? Why is so much hostility being read into all of this?

davyK

I don't think anyone was attacking me. I have no issue with any response.

I'm glad it opened a conversation up because I was making an observation about myself but I wasn't sure what it meant. While I was pleased with what I experienced when I realised those guys being black hadn't consciously registered with me, I certainly wasn't looking praise!

Yossarian

davyK wrote:

lots

Thanks Davy, that’s interesting.

Hard agree on the segregated schooling thing, it’d be good to see that change.

dynamiteReady

Tempy wrote:

Were people attacking Davy or just having a conversation? Why is so much hostility being read into all of this?

I'm worried about where the hostility is directed.

Because, again, it's simple.

There's only one place for it.
At this particular point in time at least.

hunk

Tempy wrote:

Were people attacking Davy or just having a conversation? Why is so much hostility being read into all of this?

The topic makes many people feel uncomfortable. Which is exactly why we must discuss it.

Tempy

dynamiteReady wrote:

Tempy wrote:

Were people attacking Davy or just having a conversation? Why is so much hostility being read into all of this?

I'm worried about where the hostility is directed. Because, again, it's simple. There's only one place for it.

Sorry, I genuinely have no idea what this means. Chalk it up to tiredness, but if you wouldn't mind elaborating?

Tempy

davyK wrote:

I don't think anyone was attacking me. I have no issue with any response. I'm glad it opened a conversation up because I was making an observation about myself but I wasn't sure what it meant. While I was pleased with what had happened I certainly wasn't looking praise!

FWIW, like I said in my original post your perspective is interesting due to your age and upbringing, so is everyone else's.

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